[00:00:00] Speaker A: The evidence was sound. It was there. God existed. Jesus really was who he claimed to be. But the reason I didn't give my life to him was because I didn't want it to be true.
I think inwardly, like I didn't want it to be true, because what happens if it's true? Well, then you're. You're held accountable to someone.
And so it was when I realized that that's when it shifted. And I said, well, that's not a good reason to not believe it. All right, Jesus, what's next? And that was me giving my life to.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Hello, and welcome to X Skeptic, the podcast where you find unlikely stories of belief where those who once dismissed God found themselves reconsidering and ultimately embracing faith in Jesus Christ. I'm your host, Jana Harmon. If you're interested in more stories and advice from former skeptics and atheists, you can find them by visiting our
[email protected] that's exskeeptic.org and on our YouTube channel, and we hope to see you there.
So many people today reject Christianity not out of deep investigation, but out of distraction or simply a lack of desire.
Life moves fast, and the questions that matter most often get buried beneath everything else. For many, atheism or skepticism isn't so much a reasoned conclusion as it is a default setting. Faith is dismissed without ever really being considered. Today's guest, Michael Ray Lewis, knows that story very well. He lived most of his life as an atheist, not out of hostility, but out of habit. He was too distracted to care, too busy to ask life's biggest questions. His sense of self, meaning and purpose were defined by his shifting passions and pursuits.
But all of that changed when Michael was confronted with a set of circumstances that disrupted his life and challenged his own beliefs. Determined to disprove Christianity, he was surprised to discover a wealth of resources offering scientific, historical and philosophical evidence for the existence of God and for the truth of Christianity. After three years of rigorous investigation, Michael became convinced that God is the best explanation for the reality we live in. What he found led him on a journey from disbelief to a deep personal faith in Jesus Christ. And his entire life and worldview shifted. Today, he's the director of Universe designed, a compelling new documentary that brings together some of the world's leading Christian apologists to explore evidence for the existence of God and the historical truth of Christianity to help others see what he once couldn't. If you've ever wondered whether belief in God matters, Michael's story might just give you something to Think about the questions he began to wrestle with might be the very ones you, you're asking too. So I hope you'll come along.
Well, hello Michael. Welcome to X Skeptic. It's so great to have you with me today.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: That's terrific. We're so glad to have you here. And as we're getting started I'd love for our listeners to know a bit about you. Can you tell us a bit about your life and your work?
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
I, I am a filmmaker. I'm currently working on a documentary on the Evidence for God.
I do film full time but that is more of my passion project.
Other film various project include projects included in the work that I do. I've got a beautiful wife, I've got an eight year old son and a four year old daughter.
We live just about an hour south of DFW down in the country. So we've got horses and animals and lots of great things out here. We get to enjoy just the nature of um.
I used to be an atheist and not anymore. My journey, I'm sure we'll get into it here shortly but I'm excited to, to talk about it and share that with you.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's why you're here. This fantastic to hear your story and it's always just so intriguing to hear someone's journey from atheism to a strong sense of Christian faith and belief in God. The question is, you know, how did that happen? So let's start back at your childhood at the very beginning because behind that atheism there's a reason for it and there's a background to it. There's a background story and that's what I'd love to tap into first. Why don't you talk with us about your childhood and how those atheistic beliefs formed.
What did your home look like? Was there religion in the home? Was God a part of your, your, your home life at all?
[00:04:33] Speaker A: So growing up my, my family said that they believed in God and we had a Bible under the bed. But we never really talked about God, we never talked about Jesus. We definitely never read the Bible. So the only real interactions I had with Christians were the ones that were on the street corners yelling at me that I'm going to hell and holding up the signs and had a very aggressive approach at it.
So over time, I don't know if it was, it was the perception I had of Christians that turned me away or just that I didn't think it was true.
But gradually, over time, I started watching documentaries opposing Christianity and showing that it's ridiculous, there's no good reason to believe it. And I think those, those ideas just stuck in my head and I got really interested in the idea of astronomy and the universe and all the big questions. And so I'd watch the TV shows on Discovery Channel about the universe and try to learn a little bit about it.
But I, over time, I just, I just didn't see any good reason to believe it. There were no Christians giving me any good reason. And so I just naturally adapted the, the title of an atheist. And as an atheist, I did become pretty aggressive in my approach. Whenever I would interact with Christians, I would make fun of their beliefs. I would try to point out why there's no good reason to believe it. And I think I, I inherently, that's just, that's where my, my mindset was. I didn't see any good reasons. And so I became an atheist.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: I think that's a very common tale, isn't it?
[00:06:08] Speaker A: It is. And one other thing I forgot to mention as well, that was probably going to be a large influence in it. I did, I, growing up, became obsessed with horror films and scaring people and my family, we would, we would sit around and do seances and, and these were the kind of things that, I don't know, I became obsessed with. And over time I got to. Into my atheism. I thought all of it was ridiculous and none of it was true either. However, I do think that may have influenced a little bit as well. Just my idea of like spirituality. Nothing drastic really ever happened in those situations. And so I think I just naturally adapted the idea that none of this stuff is true.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Okay, so you had tapped into what could have been, I guess, some touch point with dark spirituality, but nothing. You'd never experienced anything there.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: There were a couple, but I, even looking back at them now, I, I think they, there was something there, but at the time I just would write it off. I would write it off as nothing actually happening.
But looking back at everything that I went through and everything we did, I'm sure that I messed with a lot of stuff I wasn't supposed to mess with.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: But at the end of the day, you felt like there was nothing. There was no there there, no, no nothing worth really hanging your hat on or believing or in the dark side or the, or the light, really.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. But I loved horror films. And so naturally, when I got into filmmaking, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to make scary movies. That could scare people.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's an interesting genre. I know that some people really enjoy the thrill, the thrill of it all, the sense of fear and the way that it makes them feel. And that's, that's probably a discussion for another day. Yeah, but, but back in, in your childhood, I'm curious, some of those early references to Christianity seemed quite negative, very judgmental, and the picture that you were getting, it seemed, was not a positive one.
Two things really from that. One is what was your impression of Christianity over and all overall? And do you think that it fed into the contemptuousness that you felt later on?
[00:08:29] Speaker A: I think overall I just saw Christianity as just one of many religions.
One, a documentary that really influenced me or was called Zeitgeist, I believe was the title. And it had mentioned how Christianity was only a replication of all these other ancient myths over the centuries. And there were similarities between the story of Jesus, his life, death and birth, or his. His birth, life, death and resurrection. And it replicated these ancient myths. And so I think I just looked at it as. That's all it was. I stuck with that. I didn't attempt to do any kind of research. I just stuck with that idea that this is just one of hundreds of other religions and no one really knows anything about reality.
All we know is the.
I was a big proponent of like, evolution and the whole concept of there's no real purpose in life. This is just all there is.
And I think that Christianity, I didn't even give it a second thought, to be honest with you.
There was a time when I would have friends or people I interacted with that would try to bring me to church, and I didn't want anything to do with it. I thought it was fake and there was no good reason for me to go. There was even a girlfriend at the time that tried to drag me to church and I broke up with her for trying to drag me to church. That's how against it I was. I was not about to have all this Christian stuff.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: So as you, you mentioned there that, that you had recognized that it's a fairly stark reality without all the spirituality that, that there's not much, like you say, meaning or those kinds of things. There's one thing believing in those kind of concepts, and it's another thing to live in in those realities.
How, how was your life as an atheist? Did you think deeply, even about your own atheism and, and what did you think atheism actually was? Or how would you define that?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: I would define at the time the. I would define atheism as just, I don't believe in God. That's how I was presented it, and that's just how I would always go forward. Looking back, I would probably say I was more agnostic than I was an atheist. But at the time, that's what I titled myself as, being an atheist, I. Or agnostic. At the time, I didn't, I just didn't think about these questions. Like there wasn't like this mindset where I had come to the conclusion that life is meaningless and therefore I, I should just do whatever I want with this life. Now, I think I would find meaning and purpose in different things. I would find it in film, I would find it in music, I would find it in relationships. And so I would try to, in a sense, decide what my purpose was going to be for this life.
But I also didn't, I just didn't really think about the big questions. I think I was too distracted. I think there was too much going on in my life for me to even think, why am I here? What's my purpose? Where did I come from?
And even really thinking hard about my atheism, it wasn't until I took that second look at Christianity that I really had to think hard about what the implications were of my belief as an atheist. But at the time, I think I was just distracted. I didn't, I didn't even consider any of these questions. All I knew was it wasn't true because there was no good evidence for it. I didn't like the way that Christians acted and I didn't want anything to do with it.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: So, yeah, there was nothing there for you. You didn't, didn't care about it. It didn't affect your life, all of those things. So what was it that made you reconsider or, or think more? You said you came back and reconsidered Christianity a second time. But what, what prompted moving in that direction?
[00:12:34] Speaker A: So my wife came home one day and she looked at me and she said, I feel like Jesus is calling me back. And just to give you a little bit of a backstory, she did grow up in the church.
Over time, she had been pulled away by friends, and I ended up pulling her away quite a bit. And so we never really talked about church or anything like that, but she came home randomly and said that she felt like Jesus was calling her back. And if you remember, I had broken up with a girlfriend prior for trying to drag me to church. However, I was married to her, I loved her, and so I said, all right, I'll go to church with you and we'll see what all this is about. And I remember I walked in to the church and I looked around at the congregation and I thought to myself, okay, it's. These people don't seem that bad. Not. These aren't. The people on the street corner I interacted with, they seem to genuinely believe all this stuff, but it's just not true. I mean, it's nice. It gives them something to hope in, and that's great and all, but it's just. It's not real.
We actually. We even ended up taking marriage classes at the church while I was an atheist, just so she could see. And I was like, oh, yeah, these are great applications, but it's just they foundation of it's not true. Well, eventually I got tired of going. I didn't want to go to church anymore. And so I figured all I have to do is show her that it's not true. This is all ridiculous. We can leave the church and. And go back to living our life without all of this Christianity stuff.
But she was.
She was very resilient and adamant about it being true.
She even bought me a Bible. And I remember I opened this Bible and I looked through, like, the first few pages of Genesis and like, oh, this is ridiculous. So I closed it, put it away, and thought, there's nothing to any of this.
Well, over time, I would hit her with really hard questions, and she eventually was like, I don't know the answers, but it's true. I don't know how to explain all this, but it is true. And so I was like, okay, so I'm gonna. All I need to do is go a little bit deeper. And I went. And I remember the first book I bought was Timothy Keller's Reasons for God.
I ended up going through that book. I'm like, okay, it's a little, little something, but I still kind of dismissed it. And then there was one moment that happened, and it was a YouTube video that popped up on my YouTube feed, and it was titled Christian or, sorry, Atheist Turns Christian.
I think it's like evidence for God. I can't remember the exact name of the title, but it was Hugh Ross going over his perspective of the creation days.
If you remember, when I opened through Genesis, I closed it and said it was ridiculous because I didn't the. The six days of creation. That was one of the roadblocks for me. Well, I saw his perfect perspective of that. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe there is something to this Opened up Genesis again and read through it. And I said this is, really seems to line up with what we're, what we're finding.
And then.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Can I interrupt you for a moment? So what was it that Hugh Ross was saying that seemed different to you than, than what perhaps you had heard before or that might make more sense now with this biblical text?
[00:15:39] Speaker A: So originally I was always told, and what I thought Scripture said was that God created the universe in six literal 24 hour days.
Well, when we look at like, I don't, I'm not an astronomer, but I know a lot about how all of this works, the speed of light, how we measure the age of the universe. And, and none of that seems to line up anything with a six day creation. And it was Hugh Ross going over his interpretation of the, the word yom for day, saying that it can mean part of the daylight hours, 24 hour period or a long but finite period of time. And this, the moment that you read through Genesis as a longer but finite period of time, then everything lines up with what we're finding.
In addition to that, he also goes over. When you read through Genesis, you have to read it from the perspective of the author.
So you have to place yourself rather than us looking down on a globe and reading through Genesis as this. Everything happening on the earth, you have to read it from the perspective of the author, which would have been on the surface of the earth. And the moment you have that perspective, everything lines up as well. And so that was one of the things that, that really piqued my curiosity and, and I, I had started to second guess all of it. And so then I, that's when I was more open to doing more research and trying to, to see was there any other evidence that supported it. And this was, like I said, that was just the kind of the, the starting point. It, it inevitably. It took me three years to convince me that it was true. Three years of me just reading books and watching podcasts and trying to really look deeper at this whole concept of this worldview of Christianity.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: Yes, it takes a, it's a process, isn't it? When you're convinced in, in one regard that God doesn't exist or Christianity is not true, and then to change that, that way of thinking, that's a huge paradigm shift.
So you were starting to, to think maybe there's something to this. You read Tim Keller's Reasons for God. Was there anything that kind of stood out in that, that made you think maybe Christianity isn't just a made up story or a Man made story that there is something, something substantive underneath this.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Well, there was a lot of things over all the books that I read. The, the one that really got me was the teleological argument, the argument for design.
I think that was the one that it like we literally based on the laws of physics, we shouldn't be here, but yet here we are. And not only here we are, but here we are able to ask the question, why are we here? And I think the fine tuning, just seeing how many parameters have to be just right in order for us to have a planet that'll support life, that was one of the things that really compelled me. But then I started getting into all the arguments and I think it was the cumulative case of everything that it was, everything was pointing one direction.
From the cosmological argument for the origin of the universe, the fine tuning of the universe, the lack of evidence within the fossil record for the theory of evolution, and the positive evidence that it's by design given like the information embedded in DNA. Then we get into like the, the scriptural evidence, like seeing just how many manuscripts we have to compare to know that what we're reading is what was, is virtually what was written down 2,000 years ago. And so it's a book that we can trust. It's not only a book that we can trust, but it's a book that fulfills prophecies. And then it starts, you get into Jesus and just like the impact of Jesus, the evidence surrounding the resurrection. And it was, it was kind of one thing after another, everything was pointing in one direction. And so it became harder and harder for me to deny it because I had based my entire world view on short documentaries that I watched about Christianity. I had never given it a second thought to really dig into this to see if it's true. I just based my beliefs on slogans like why would God allow evil and suffering?
Or evolution is a fact, or science has disproven Christianity. These were slogans that I would build my entire worldview on without even doing the research. And I think a lot of us do that. I think a lot of us, we will build our, our entire worldview on. The first thing we hear that sounds appealing and we just don't spend the time to really do the research to figure out if it's true or not.
[00:20:10] Speaker B: So you started going on this journeying and it sounds like the more that you were investigating that you were becoming more open to what you were reading in a fair minded way. I guess we all have a bias, we all have Things that we want to be true or want not to be true.
It sounds like in your journeying, you, you moved from an intent to disprove to an openness of really wanting to know whether or not this is true. Is that a fair assessment?
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yes, it is.
I couldn't tell you at what point that happened, but I know that there was a point where I was. I really wanted to know.
I think. I think it was probably that moment after I watched that video from Hugh Ross. I think that was the moment where I really wanted to know if it's true or not.
Before, I was just trying to disprove everything so we didn't have to go to church. But over time, it became something that I was ready to look into and ready to spend as much time as I could doing research and trying to figure out if it's actually true.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: And I'm curious, just as an aside, you're going through this investigative process.
You found yourself going regularly to church with your wife.
I'm curious two things. What was your experience of church? Was it anything you thought it would be? And what were the people like in the church? Were they anything other than. Or your, Your expectations or negative stereotypes that had been built in your. In your mind? And did that have any effect on your willingness or openness to take a closer look?
[00:21:49] Speaker A: So I did notice that the people in the church were super friendly and nice, but. But I didn't really interact with them during this process. Like, I was a very, very big introvert. I don't like to talk to people, and so I just avoided them. I would go with her and we'd sit and watch the sermons, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't really interact with them deeply in that process. But, yeah, my experience with them was. Was completely different than the experience I had on the street corners, for example, because on the street corners they were very aggressive, but the people in this church were nice and friendly.
I just didn't spend a whole lot of time talking to him by. I spent more time trying to do the research. There was a moment where I. It was kind of towards the. It was towards the end of the three years and I started asking my wife questions about heaven and demons and how all of this stuff works. And I remember she said, I don't know the answer, but I know a family friend who's a theologian and you can go meet up with him and have a conversation with him.
And so I went over at his house and I had five pages full of questions. I was just ready to hit him with because I was still very skeptical and curious. And I remember I, I went through the entire list of questions and I got to the end and he had answered every single one of them. And I remember distinctly had answered every single one of them with scripture. Every question I asked, he would turn to scripture and see what it said.
And he looked up at me and he said, so do you, do you think it's true?
And I said, I think so. He's like, so you believe it?
I said, I think so. And then it didn't really hit me until it was. I was driving home after that and then I realized I actually believe this.
Like all this evidence had, had accumulated and piled up and I actually believe it.
So like, what's holding me back?
And what I realized is the evidence was sound.
It was there. God existed. Jesus really was who he claimed to be. But the reason I didn't give my life to him was because I didn't want it to be true.
I think inwardly, like I didn't want it to be true because what happens if it's true? Well, then you're, you're held accountable to someone.
And, and so it was when I realized that that's when it shifted. And I said, well, that's not a good reason to not believe it. All right, Jesus, what's next? And that was me giving my life to Christ.
And I remember I got home and my wife was sitting there on the couch and she's like, so, so how'd it go? I was like, well, I believe. And she's like, so you're a Christian? I said, I guess so.
And so it was.
But after that it was, I mean, everything changed because it was that realization that all of this was actually true. And I think there was an experience to this as well. As much as the evidence. I, I am adamant about utilizing evidence when sharing your faith. I did have an experience of. It was almost like a fog left my mind and I could finally see reality for the way that it actually is.
And it was ironic because as, as an atheist, I always thought Christians were narrow minded. And I realized after I gave my life to Christ, looking back, how narrow minded I was as an atheist. And now I could finally see reality for the way that it was. Only I can attribute that to, was the inner witness of the, the Holy Spirit. But something happened and everything changed when I gave my life to Christ. And then I became excited because this is actually real.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Yeah, when it's actually real, things do change.
In what ways? Palpably did they Change in your life, your outlook, your.
The. When you. When things change, it can change not only the way that you're thinking, but the way that you're living. And you can change everything in your life. Can you talk to us about that?
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, something.
And so almost immediately after I gave my life to Christ, um, God blessed us with our first child.
And so that my perspective of life was totally shifting at this point because I was. I was.
We were gonna have a kid. Like, this was completely different.
And I think that everything changed. I mean, my.
My desire for things changed. I wanted to know more about God. I spent. I found myself spending tons of time in scripture and tons of time reading books and trying to understand as much as I could.
Um, and mostly, like, I was excited because this is all true, but I was also kind of frustrated because I really, like, people need to know this. Like, how do people not know all this stuff? And I would interact with the Christian Christians, I would start having conversations with other Christians. And I realized that about 90% of them couldn't defend what they believe. They didn't have the same journey that I had based on the evidence. And so when you ask them difficult questions, they weren't able to answer the difficult questions questions. And so I'm thinking, well, we need to, like, we need to tell people about this stuff. And I. I really wanted to go out and have conversations with people, but I was afraid that I would say something wrong or that I wouldn't be able to answer a question correctly or that I would stumble on my words. And so I wouldn't go out and really talk to people about it.
And.
And then there was something that happened in my life that changed that as well.
My. My grandma was passing away in the hospital, and my. My dad had called me, and he said, you need to come up here and so you can see Grandma, because we're about to take her off the life support, and we just want you to be up there. And so it was me and my dad and my aunts. And I remember I walked in and she was coherent and talking, and you could have a conversation with her. And I'm thinking, I don't know if she believes in Jesus. I don't know if, like, what my family believes, because, like I said, they had always claimed to believe in God growing up, but there was never like, that. That desire to talk about Jesus or bring him up during conversations. And so I. I didn't know. I didn't know what her relationship with Jesus was like. And I was like, so I, but I can't talk to her because my dad had mentioned, as soon as I come in, don't let, don't let her know that we're going to be taking her off life support because we're afraid that she'll freak out if she does.
And I'm, and I was like, how do we not tell someone? You're about to, they're about to die. How can you not tell someone that? And I guess she had already signed the, the do not resuscitate waiver. And, and so I was like, well, somebody's got to talk to her. Like, I need to have a conversation with her. And I remember there was a chaplain walking by, and he asked if he could pray for her.
And she was like, yeah, come on in. I'm like, great. This guy's gonna, he's gonna share the gospel with her, and she's gonna give her life to Jesus. And he walked in and we all kind of sat in a, a circle around her and cited the Lord's Prayer, which I didn't even know that they knew. I guess they must have learned it growing up, but they were even stumbling over it. And then after the Lord's Prayer, that was it. And he walked out. And I'm thinking he didn't, he didn't share the gospel with her. He didn't talk to her.
And I just, my heart was burning in me. Well, I was too afraid. And so she ended up, they, they pulled the plug. She passed away. And I never got to talk to her about Jesus.
And I think that moment impacted me so much that I, I, I, I didn't share the gospel with her, and I didn't talk to her about Jesus because I was afraid of what my family might think and, like, of all the reasons to not share Jesus. That's what I was afraid of. I was afraid of what they might think.
And I think from then on, I was like, I made a commitment. I was like, I'm not going to let this happen again. I'm going to talk to Jesus about everybody that I come in contact with. I don't care if I stumble over my words. I'm going to get better at it. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn how to have conversations with people.
And so now, since then, I've had hundreds of conversations with people, and I take every opportunity I can get to talk to people about Jesus, whether it's the guy changing my oil, whether it's the guy coming to the door trying to sell me solar Panels, whether it's the person in the grocery store, I will bring up, I will bring up God within the first five minutes of a conversation. And I'm very blunt about it now. I don't hesitate. I'll just, I'll just ask them. So mind if I ask you a personal question? What do you believe about God? And then I become a, I really start to, I've read Greg's book Tactics, and so I really utilize those tactics and I. Asking questions to really genuinely understand what they believe about reality, why they believe that about reality. I draw out, like, their reasoning behind coming to that conclusion and then ultimately try to plant as many seeds as I can by sharing the reasons why I think Christianity is, is true. And so now I talk to people all the time and it's, it's, it's led me to not be afraid anymore. Now I, I think as, as terrible as that experience was for me, it, it, it's changed me quite a bit inside.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: There's a few wonderful things there that you're saying. One is that the gospel, you use the word gospel a lot, and there may be a lot of people who are listening to you who don't know what you mean when you say gospel. And that has something to do with Jesus, but they don't know what that is.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Can you explain?
[00:30:52] Speaker A: So when I say the gospel, I mean the good news.
So when I have conversations with people, everyone knows the bad news, right? They know that the world is broken.
They know there's something wrong with the world, and inwardly they even know something is wrong with them. We all have this, this feeling, this, this guilty feeling. And so the good news is, well, God has given an answer for that through his son, Jesus. And the fact that we, we worship a God that isn't distant, but a God that stepped into our reality so that we can provide a bridge back to, for us, to Himself through Jesus. It's great news. And so when I say gospel, I'm meaning the good news of Jesus and, and what he accomplished on the cross.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Do you find that people are receptive when you try to talk with them about Jesus or the gospel?
[00:31:40] Speaker A: So this is, this is very interesting. I originally thought these conversations were going to be super awkward, but I think people inwardly really want to talk about this.
Probably 80% of the people that I talk to are at least open to hearing and, and really want to have conversations with you. There are those few that are resistant to it and they just don't want to talk about religion. But for the most part, When I have conversations with people, I mean they, they want to talk about it. They really do. And I've also noticed that most of them have based their idea of Christianity on, on false assumptions, things that aren't even what Christians believe.
And so I, one of the things I do in conversations with people is I try to clarify what it is we believe as Christians, what it is we believe about reality, what it is we believe about Jesus. And yeah, I think, but a lot of people want to talk about it. I mean, it's not as taboo of a subject as people think that it is. And it doesn't get as awkward as you think it would get because people are open and they, they, they want to share their opinions as well. They've got opinions about reality and they want to tell you what they believe. And that's a, it's a great conversation to have with, with someone because then we're not talking about the weather, we're not talking about sports. We're talking about the meaningful things in life. And we all, I think, desire that because our culture has told us to get rid of those. Don't talk about those in conversations. Those are the, the subjects. We don't talk about religion, we don't talk about politics.
Let's just talk about who won some football game. And I could care less about those conversations. I think inwardly we all really desire to have the, the meaningful conversations about life.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: It's great that you, it seems like you're providing a safe space to do that with genuine interest, asking questions, listening, hearing their heart, really what they're thinking. So that is so countercultural, isn't it? We have, we're living in such a divisive culture where you, you think, you think that if you talk about something that you will offend somebody. And so we almost self censor with, instead of helping people to navigate through some of these incredibly important questions and issues. Actually the most important thing in life and that is who is Jesus Christ and what is life itself?
Does God really exist? What is the Bible? You know, is it, is it worthy of belief?
I'm curious in your journeying because I know that there are some people who are listening who, who are married to someone who doesn't believe or who have someone in their life, a family member, friend, who doesn't believe.
But yet they're so close. I mean, sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger than it is to someone who's the closest to you.
And I wondered how your wife navigated your non belief, your initial resistance.
Did and how was she? Was she engaged? Did she step back during you allowing you space to take your own journey or what? Give us a picture of what that looked like.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: It was hard for her, I will say that, because, because of how resistant and how long it took me to realize that it's all true.
It was a lot of her praying for me. She said she prayed for me a whole lot. She, she tried to have conversations with people to ask for help and sharing, like evidence with me, but she told me that a lot of people, they were like, oh, he doesn't believe. That's so sad.
And like, just kind of left her hanging.
And so she struggled. I mean, I, I, I, you'd probably have to ask her to see like, exactly what she was going through, but I know that it, it was hard on her and that's why she was so excited for when I did give my life to Christ, because she had been praying for this for like three years now. And so when I was finally, when I finally believed it, she was super excited about it. But yeah, it's, it's difficult, especially with family and people that you're so close to. You're right, because one, they know who you were prior to becoming a believer a lot of times. And it's, it's, it is just really hard because they, for some reason, it's hard for us to take our family seriously.
And I don't know why that is, but I do know based on my experience, it is as well.
And so what I do with my family a lot of times is I try to have conversations with them. If they're not receptive to it, I continue to let them know that that door is open whenever they're ready to have the conversation. I continue to pray for them and I specifically pray that God would put someone else in their life that could plant that seed better than I could.
And so I think that it's hard a lot of times it's hard to not just shake them and say, how do you not see this?
But I think a lot of times we just have to, we have to continue to pray for them. And you never know what God's going to do in their life. You never know what moment they're going to, he's going to put them through. That will change their perspective and get them to take a second look at it.
[00:37:15] Speaker B: It sounds as if you went on this journey alone, you were looking at videos, you were reading things on your own. Were you communicating with your wife, what you were finding? Were you keeping to yourself Were you talking with anyone else outside having, having discussions? I know that earlier in your journey you talked about how Christians didn't. You would encounter a lot of people who didn't know, couldn't answer questions or whatever. So I wondered if that three year period, if that was kind of a solo journeying or did you communicate with your wife and, or any other Christians before you had that meeting there?
[00:37:59] Speaker A: At the end it was just me and my wife. I did share with her as, as I went along through my journey, I would share with her the stuff I was finding and was always talking to her about it.
But yeah, no, I mean I really never ran into someone who was there to like explain all of it to me. It was just kind of that self discovery and a lot of reading. But what's, what's funny about this is prior to becoming or prior to this, this, this journey, I had never finished a book like in high school and I had, I'd kind of started them, but for the most part I'd go out and watch the movie just to pass tests just so I could get by. And I hated reading and I probably read I don't know how many books in the, within this three years because I was just, I was absorbing all of this.
I, my desire to try to understand if it's true was I, I really wanted to know.
But yeah, no, it was just me and my wife. And that's why, that's partly why I am very adamant about apologetics.
I think it's necessary for us to know apologetics to be able to, when someone asks hard questions, to be able to not just defend it for them, but to build a foundation for your beliefs so that you have something to fall back on when emotionally it's a little hard to believe in God at the moment. Moment you have that foundation of the facts.
Regardless of how I feel, it's true.
And, and then you're, you become excited and you want to share your faith because you have the answers to those hard questions. And, and really I think in my conversations with people there's only a few topics that are really holding people back that they'll ask. It's the problem of evil is a big one.
Um, the fact that there is no evidence for God, that's a big one. They prove to me that God exists. We can't see God. That kind of mindset and then cultural problems. They don't like what the Bible says about a particular topic. And really if you can, if you can equip yourself to answer just a few questions like that and respond to those, then you can have tons of great conversations with people. And I. That that's great. Looking back on it, that this was just my personal journey and I think God did it for a reason. It's not as though he didn't put someone in my path that knew all the answers to apologetics because honestly, I probably wouldn't have listened at the time anyways.
I probably still would have rejected it.
And I think he. He put the seeds in my life in the way that they probably should needed to go.
But I am adamant about people.
We need to know the evidence. We need to be able to share our faith and we need to be out there talking about Jesus because we love Jesus. We want, if we want. Don't we want people to know the truth about reality, the truth about everything that explains everything in their life?
And why are we not out there sharing that? Why don't we talk about that?
[00:40:56] Speaker B: That's a very, very good question.
You had mentioned that there, there are a lot of books that you read and through your course and I'm sure you're a reader still.
What resources or books you think would be very helpful for someone either as a Christian trying to bolster their faith and have those answers or for someone who's actually saying, wow, he went through the hard journey. He was a skeptic. You know, what were some books that were very insightful for him? Obviously you mentioned Tim Keller, the the Reason for God and you mentioned Hugh Ross and Reasons to Believe and his ministry. Anything else?
[00:41:38] Speaker A: So the. I actually have a few set of books that I hand out to people whenever I'm having conversations with them. One book that I highly recommend that I hand out to everyone is I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Frank Turek.
And the other one that I hand out to everyone is A Person of Interest by J. Warner Wallace. Those are the main two books that I kind of point people toward mainly because those are, are easy to read books, especially when you're just now. You don't want to get bombarded with everything at once. You want to try to introduce them. And, and I, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist as a really good summary of the evidence for God. And then Person of Interest is a really good summary of just who Jesus was, how much of an impact he made. And so those are the two that I would highly recommend to anyone.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Yeah, those, those are both excellent. Definitely. I've, I've given them away myself.
I know that you've already given so much good advice.
I.
I'm thinking of the skeptic. You made a comment a minute ago that if someone had come to you when you were earlier, when you were skeptical, you may not have listened.
And I think that's oftentimes the case where someone is just not ready. They're not open to even God conversations.
How. I mean, I know that people are in different, but yet you, you know, there's that 80% that if you just ask them a question, what do you think about God? You know, that they would be so open.
But for that skeptic who might be interested, what is that in what direction should they go? I mean, I know you started with an intent to disprove. I mean, even with that kind of intentionality towards the information, is it worth it just to even, just to enter in, you know, in some way?
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Absolutely.
So one of the things that I am, I'm trying to provide.
So I had mentioned before that I was obsessed with making horror films. Well, when I became a believer, I thought to myself, oh, I shouldn't do that anymore.
It's like, what. What good would that do for the kingdom? And I was talking to my wife and she said, well, why don't you do a documentary and on the evidences that you found through this, this journey. And so I said, all right, I'll do a documentary. I'll go and find a bunch of people who used to be atheist and interview them and tell me how they came to faith. Well, it ended up spiraling into something much, much bigger. I got to interview Frank Turek, I got to interview Hugh Ross, Sean McDowell, Stephen Meyer, all of these great apologists of the books that I had read.
And so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to create a resource for that person, that person who's ready to take a second look at Christianity, whether it be a skeptical look or whether it be a genuine interest to see if it's true.
We had mentioned about handing people books, but the problem I've found is one, you have to have a book with you all the time, which is it's hard to kind of just tell them, oh, go buy this book. You don't know if they ever will. And as the way that our attention spans are today, it's really difficult to convince someone to read an entire book. You. But what if there's a movie? What if you referred them to a movie and maybe gave them a link to it? And so that's what the hope in this project is going to be is that it'll be a documentary that will show them that Christianity is worth taking a second look at. And I obviously can't pack all of the evidence in an hour and 25 minute movie, but what I can do is I can pique their curiosity and then I can send them to the resources. So on my website, for example, once you watch the movie, I, I have a tab for resources where it has all of the ministries for all of these people that I interview that have tons of research that you can do. And so the hope is that it'll direct you to the resources that are already out there because there's tons of classes and podcasts and books that you can read on the topic. It's just that most people don't know about it. I mean, even Christians don't know about it. When I talk to Christians, they don't even know what apologetics means.
They don't, they don't know that, that there's an entire.
Just, just, there's so many resources that you can dive into to know that like what we believe is actually true, here's why it's actually true.
And it just, it blows my mind that, that most Christians aren't aware of this and I think it's so, so important. But yeah, that's the hope is that this will be that resource for that person that is, that's open to hearing it or even skeptical about it.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really, really wonderful. Michael, Kid, can you give us the, the website or how they can find out more information about this film and when is it going to be released?
[00:46:34] Speaker A: Yeah, so the website is, the film title is Universe Designed and The website is universedesigned.com I've been working on this for about three years now and it's finally done.
However, right now I'm trying to raise money to get it into theaters so I can do a theatrical release with it. And so that is going to determine on the release date. My hope is that it'll be out this year.
It all depends on how quickly I'm able to raise the funds for marketing and how that process is going to go. I know how to make a movie, but getting it out there is a whole different story.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: Oh, I imagine so. But Lord willing, there will be great enthusiasm and financial enthusiasm behind this project to get it funded. So, so lots of people can, can hear it and benefit from it.
We'll be looking for that actually. And that's really, really wonderful. And again, you have just given already so much great advice for Christians and how to engage with the skeptic. Is there anything that you would like to add to what you've already said or.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: The only thing I would say is that one, you don't have to know all of this to have conversations with people.
It helps greatly, but you can go out and start talking about Jesus regardless. You just ask them questions what they believe about it. If it's, if it's an objection they have that you don't know the response to or you don't know the answer to, then just simply say, you know, I don't know how to respond to that, but give me some time, let me look into it, and I'll let you know. And then I guarantee because of that shock factor that they've asked you something you don't know, you're going to go find out what the answer is, and you're going to be guaranteed to not only be able to respond back to them if you can, but you're not. You're going to know the answer for the next person that asked that question. And the more that you do that, the better you become at knowing the responses to some of the difficult questions that people ask.
So, one, you don't have to know everything to go out and have a conversation. Just go and start asking questions. And two, whenever you do learn all the information, one of the things you're gonna be tempted to do is just throw up on them. Just say clum, cosmological argument, teleological argument, and throwing everything at them that this is what I did at first. And quickly don't. People don't respond well to that. And so you have to be gentle in your approach.
Let them do more of the talking than you and really try to understand what their objection even really is. Because you could be throwing the evidence for God at them when their objection is they were hurt by the church.
You, you have to know what's really holding them back. And the only way that you're going to know that is to ask them questions and be curious about what they believe about these topics. And don't just end it on do you believe in God? Yes, I believe in God. Do you believe in Jesus? Yes, I believe in Jesus. Okay, great. Have a good one. Don't end it at that because we need to really draw out. There's lots of people who claim to be Christians that do not know Jesus. They may have a skewed version of it, or they may just be going along with their family and what. But they don't have any, any true belief. In it or you may even run into like a Jehovah Witness that says, yeah, I believe in Jesus, but it's a completely different Jesus than, than who we're speaking of.
And so questions. I think that's the, the, the key factor. I had mentioned this book earlier and this would be another book I would recommend for Christians is Tactics by Greg Kokel.
That, that book has helped me so much in my conversations with people because it's, it's trained me how to use questions to draw out the objections in people.
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that is, is really an incredible resource. It's with Greg Kochl. We will for sure include all of these resources in the episode notes. So if anybody's wanting to, to really connect with that or also your, your website for your new film, it will all be listed there for you. But is there anything else? Michael, we, you, we've covered a lot of ground here today. I want to give you a last word if you, if you want to, to add anything to what we've said, anything we've missed.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: No, just a sense of encouragement for anyone that's, that doesn't know about apologetics to.
I mean this stuff is exciting. It's exciting because like you, you're learning. It's, it's, it's a form of worshiping God with your mind. And I think that this is something that I would encourage people to spend as much time on as, as you can trying to just learn about how big God is, how much evidence there is for it.
And then yeah, if you, if you are interested in the film and you want to stay updated with it, I would say if you, when you go to the website, if you subscribe to the newsletter, I will be sending out emails keeping people updated on the progress of it when it's going to be released, where it's going to be released and even if, if you would like to donate, there's donate features on there as well. We're still trying to raise the marketing money for it, but yeah, I guess that's all I'd have to say.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: No, that's, that's really wonderful. When I, when I think about your story, Michael, it strikes me that at the beginning of your journeying, you really, you didn't want Christianity.
It wasn't interesting to you, you didn't want to have anything to do with it. You just didn't really care.
And now I'm sitting here across the, the camera from somebody who cares infinitely about it that, that Christianity now is infinitely important not only to you, but to everyone. Every when you meet, you know, you, you see it's important.
Important beyond yourself to, to, to everyone knowing about Jesus because of the life that he's given to you, that he is actually the ground to all reality and that it makes a difference for everything.
So you're a beautiful example and ambassador for Christ. And I just, I appreciate you coming on and telling your story today.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:53:01] Speaker B: Thank you for joining us on Ex Skeptic and for listening to Michael Lewis story. And it's a powerful reminder that sometimes the most dangerous obstacle to belief isn't hostility. It's apathy. It's the quiet current of distraction that keeps us from asking the questions that matter most. For years, Michael claimed atheism without ever truly examining it. But once he paused long enough to wrestle with life's deeper questions, and once he encountered the compelling evidence for God and the truth of the gospel, his entire worldview shifted. What began as a skeptical inquiry became a turning point that changed everything. His identity, his purpose, his marriage, and his calling. If you've ever dismissed faith without really looking into it, or if you know someone who has, Michael's story is an invitation to stop, reflect, and reconsider.
If you'd like to explore your own questions in conversation with one of our guests, we'd love to help. Just email
[email protected] and we'd love to get you connected.
To hear more journeys like this, or to explore curated playlists that match with your own questions, visit xsceptic.org and finally, if you'd like to subscribe to our email list, email us@info skeptic.org X Skeptic is part of the C.S. lewis Institute podcast Network. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might benefit from hearing stories like these. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to join us next time for another unlikely story of belief.
