[00:00:00] Speaker A: Having a rational understanding, a rational defense for what we believe as Christians is very foreign to the Kiwi New Zealand church mindset.
It's a very deeply spiritual and therefore any sort of questioning, any sort of doubts you get met with the typical just have more faith.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello and thanks for joining in. I'm Jana Harmon and you're listening to Ex Skeptic where we hear unlikely stories of belief. Each podcast we listen to someone who has once been an atheist or a skeptic, but who became a Christian against all odds. If you're interested in looking beyond this episode, you can find more than 100 more of our stories on Exkeptic website@x skeptic.org and see more of these fascinating stories on our YouTube channel.
We would love to hear more of what you think about these podcasts and stories, what you would like to see on the Ex Skeptic forum, and how we can make it better. Please email us@info skeptic.org with any thoughts, suggestions or questions you may have.
People reject Christianity, believing that faith and reason are fundamentally incompatible, that belief in God is purely emotional or experiential. While some are moved by personal experiences alone, others need to know that their faith is grounded in solid reasoning. They seek a belief system that makes intellectual as well as spiritual sense. After all, faith demands a lot. It means acknowledging the existence of a real God and admitting that we are not God. It involves a personal recognition of guilt, a need for forgiveness, and ultimately it demands a whole life sacrifice and surrender. A change of your whole world.
Today's story features Hinari, a former atheist from New Zealand who couldn't accept Christianity without compelling reasons to do so. He left his faith behind, seeking answers that somehow felt unattainable. But now he helps others navigate the very questions that once eluded him. What changed? Join us as we explore his remarkable journey.
Welcome to X Skeptic Henare. It's so great to have you with me today.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Oh, it's wonderful to be here Jana. Very wonderful. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Oh, I'm so glad to hear your wonderful New Zealander voice and dialect. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself as we're getting started, where you live exactly and what you do.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So I live in New Zealand, Wellington city. But my family though comes from the east coast of New Zealand. You probably tell a little bit. For those who know about the Kiwi accent, I've got a little bit of an east coast twang going on, but yes, no, I live here with my Beautiful wife Gemma and our 12 year old son Azarius. And praise the Lord, we've got another one on the way as well. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: And what do you do? Are you involved in ministry of some sort?
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, so I serve my local community here as a lay pastor, as a Bible teacher, and also I serve for New Zealand number one apologetics organization, Thinking Matters, is the director of Christian Mori Apologetics which has been going on for a few years now.
So that's, that's really, really good. It takes up a lot of my time but it's always wonderful as well to go around sharing the good news and share reasons why to believe with people across the country.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Well, let's get into your story.
Talk to us a little bit about where you were raised. I presume in New Zealand or Wellington or the east coast you mentioned. Tell us about where you come from, your people, your community, your family, your religion, if any in your household when you were young.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: So I grew up in a Christian home but, but I guess the backdrop to that was that my parents had a quite a unique sort of story, I guess so I, so I had a great childhood growing up. You know, I'm the youngest of 10, I've got 30, 32 nieces and nephews. So quite a large family.
But the backdrop with my parents sort of laid out my story really.
So my dad, he is one of the founders of New Zealand's most notorious gangs, a chapter here in the Wellington region.
And my mum, she is a ex Jehovah's Witness, hailing all the way from Surrey, London as well. So I have my dad who comes from the east coast of New Zealand from the Rongamaiwahine Katikahanunu tribe.
And yeah, so, so it's a, it's an interesting backdrop to actually have for my life.
I never knew my parents in the way that my older siblings did being, you know, the story of violence, drug use, gangs, all of that sort of stuff.
Because by the time that I was around about three, my dad had pretty much had a supernatural encounter with God. And that completely shifted the way that my life actually started to progress and the environment that I actually grew up in, which was quite dramatic if I can use that word.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Do you mind if I ask in terms of your father's encounter with Christ, obviously it was life changing. I mean it changed everything, right? It changed everything in your home, it changed everything in the life of your family.
Has he talked about what that encounter was or what it was that Allowed him to change so dramatically.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So my dad was in prison and he'd actually planned my mum's murder and he was sick of life, but at the same time loved the life, which was interesting concept to actually think about.
And he challenged this God that he didn't believe in. My dad was not a Christian at the time.
My dad had no real understanding or concept of Christianity, of God, or of any other deity except for outside of our cultural norms.
And yeah, he charged this God he didn't believe in. He says that he raised his fist to the roof of his jail cell and said, God, if you're real, prove yourself to me. And if you do, I'll follow you for the rest of my life.
And what he says now is that you got to be careful what you ask for.
He said there was no bright light or anything like out of the movies, but rather it was just the intense power of God that filled his jail cell.
So much so that this big, black, tattooed mobster fell to the floor of his jail cell crying like a little boy. And not the pretty kind of crying either. It was one of those ugly, you know, snotty nose and everything.
And then he said he heard a voice.
The voice said, I love you. I've always loved you and I will always love you.
And with the upbringing that my dad had, he never heard those words before.
And from that moment, he said he felt as though something snapped from within him, which was his alcoholism and drug addictions, just instantaneously.
And then while on the floor crying like a little kid, he says that he then said to this presence, I believe now, I believe now. Stop your freaking me out. And then the last thing that the voice said was, I haven't finished proving myself to you yet.
And the most powerful thing for me was not so much the, the, the epic change with his drug addictions and alcoholism, but rather was. My dad never learned how to read and write.
He was the sort of guy that would go through the front gate of the school and out the back gate.
And God gave him in that moment the ability and the confidence to read, to, to write and to spell. And when I actually walked away from the faith later on, one of the reasons why is because I thought that story was all made up. My, my auntie, his sister, who was the only Christian in the family at the time, who was praying for him on the outside while he was on the inside, said that your dad couldn't even spell his own name, Hinari.
And. And then she produced a seven page letter A handwritten letter by my dad from when he was in jail.
And that blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind.
And so that sort of dramatic encounter has an effect not just on, it didn't just have an effect on him, but it had an effect on the entire family.
And so needless to say, my dad changed. He became a born again, spirit filled believer and follower of Jesus Christ overnight.
He. Yeah, and like I said before, he planned my mum's murder. He hired a well known hitman, paid him all this stuff and said, you know, go to my family house and kill my wife. I've had another fur. I was only about two or three at the time, so I would have been present. And then when that encounter happened, one of the first things he did is that he, the story goes that he spear tackled the hitman because he was on the inside and was going to get out before he did and jumped on top of him. The prison guards came and tried to separate them and he was just screaming, I love my wife. I love my wife. Don't kill her.
And so, yeah, so that's, that's the sort of backdrop to my story, to where I come into it.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: That's, that's quite a backdrop, honestly. Yeah, there's a lot, a lot there. And I know that he changed overnight and thank God.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he did.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: For the sake of your family, for your, for your mother, for all of your siblings, for himself.
So how much longer was he in prison before you came home and then reshaped your family?
[00:12:12] Speaker A: So my dad was in prison for.
What was it called, manufacturing of drugs with intent to distribute.
And he got out on good behavior. Got out early on good behavior. Now everyone in my family thought that this whole Christian story that he was spinning was just so that he could get out early and go back to how things were.
But 25, 26 years later, he's still going strong with the Lord and you know, know, like people make mistakes all the time as well. But you cannot deny that my dad's story, you know, is true. It happened.
And it's a demonstration of as well, you know, God moving in a person's life. You know, it's not just out there in the abstract that he's, you know, real and he exists, but that he's present, that he cares. And so what happened after that? My dad then submitted himself to a local pastor because he had no knowledge of Christianity or this God that had, you know, he just had an encounter with. And so he submitted himself to teaching, to pastoring, but then Pretty soon that transformative story of his really thrusted him into the limelight.
And there was a. A men's conference that came out of the United States, that came here to New Zealand, called Promise Keepers, I remember. And my dad became one of the main speakers every single year for the Promise Keepers, speaking in front of hundreds and thousands of men every single year.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: And it would fill arenas.
It was a huge movement at the time.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was. And so that was when my dad learned how to be a godly man and how to be a godly father, how to be a godly husband. And so those teachings rippled down into my life as well.
You know, how to be a godly husband, to be a godly father to my kids and to my wife. And so there's a lot of wonderful things that have happened since then.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Oh, I bet. But I'm still trying to pull my mind around, you know, your father coming home from prison, a totally changed man. You have all of these siblings, a way of doing life and home that was completely different than what it was before.
And you grew up in a home, though with, I presume, did your mother, you said she had some Jehovah's Witness in her background.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: She came to a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. So that was the, I would say, the catalyst, probably the stake in the ground for me to go, oh, okay, this is my family, this is where I come from. Now this is my starting point, which is the transforming message of Jesus Christ in my parents lives.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Yes. And like you say, it's not something abstract. You had a very tangible reality in your own home, in the lives of those you knew and loved. And so did you grow up then embracing this faith that they obviously took hold of as a child?
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I would follow my parents because my dad, as I said before, he would go around speaking and sharing his story all over the country. I grew up in the Christian faith, in a Christian home. If you were to stand me next to any one of my nine siblings, you would see that there's a huge difference.
My older siblings, they were raised in the world. They were taught how to fight, they were taught how to steal, they were taught how to lie, they were taught how to, you know, grow and sell drugs.
They were taught all of those sorts of things. But then in my life, I was taught, you know, the love of God. I was taught the attributes that come from living out a Christian life.
And so I took that with me. I believed in God. I believed that it was all true and it was great. I had a great childhood. We moved around a bit, though, because of my dad's calling on his life. We never stayed in one place for too long. So he moved all over the country and it was a little bit hard. You know, you only be in one place for maybe two years and then you'd move on to another space, another church, another school.
So that was a little bit difficult. But then we made friends everywhere that we went.
And our, our family, or what we say in mori, our, Our whnau grew, our. Our circle grew, which was really, really great, which was really wonderful to grow up in.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: So you grew up, obviously, with an amazing example of your, of your parents who had been called by the Lord to minister and to speak and to give testimony to his reality. And it sounds like you were fully in. How long did that last and what caused you to, to start questioning that?
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so I guess this goes to the, the Christian culture here in New Zealand.
I'm not too sure what it's like over in the States, but the Christian culture here is very evangelical, very Pentecostal in a lot of spaces.
And all through that there is a separation of faith from reason.
Actually, it wasn't too long ago that a very prominent pastor just down the road from where me and my family live, spoke in front of a crowd of about 200 people and said that if you're thinking you're in the flesh, if you're in the spirit, things shouldn't make sense.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: And that is, that's a Christian pastor.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: This is a very prominent Christian. I won't say his name, but this was the teaching that he gave to his, his congregation, which is an example of what Christian life is like here.
Having a rational understanding, a rational defense for what we believe as, as Christians is very foreign to the Kiwi New Zealand church mindset. It's, it's a very deeply spiritual and therefore any sort of questioning, any sort of doubts, you get met with the typical, just have more faith.
And this is what I encountered. So when I was about 16, 17, I was a little bit rebellious by the time that I got into my team, I mean, I guess like a lot of people and, you know, being brought up in a Christian space, I started to see Christianity as a list of do's and don'ts.
And so, you know, when you get told, you know, don't do something, it makes you want to do it even more. And so you have this desire that then starts to grow in your teenage years. And then, you know, you see all your friends going around, partying having a good time, talking about all these things that they get to do that because of our faith, we're told not to. And then also hearing the stories from, you know, my parents lifestyle before they became believers. It's like oh son, you don't want any part of that. You don't need to try it. We've been there, we've done that, just listen to us.
And so I'd say don't do it. And my answer would be why? And they would say be because there was no real indepth teaching as to why I shouldn't go this way or why I shouldn't do that. It was just a. And, and, and I suppose that that's also a reflection on our culture as well as a people here, here in New Zealand is that we have a very high respect for our parents and elders. You don't answer back, you. You don't challenge, you don't do any of. Even if they are genuinely wrong.
But this is just the territory of their culture here. So I would go around praying for my friends, talking with, having Jesus conversations with my friends and that would all go well. But then one day I had a conversation with my, at the time my girlfriend's father and we'll call him Mr. Smith.
Mr. Smith. He was not a stupid man. He was very well read, very street knowledgeable as well. And I was sitting there reading my Bible and he just walks over and he goes oh, you're not reading that stupid thing, are you? Sort of threw me off. And I was like well of course I am. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's the word of God.
And then I proceeded to then share why I'm a Christian, which actually was just that oh well, my dad had this experience so therefore I believe.
And then he then turned around and goes well don't you know that the Bible's been changed, that it's been translated over time and the actual essence of it has been lost.
And I never heard that before.
Whenever I had gone anywhere with my parents or even in youth groups, it was always a high reverence and just a assumption that was taken as fact that the Bible was reliable. And so yeah, he threw out some questions that I had never heard before.
And then from there it sort of stumped me because usually when I share my dad's story, they're like oh wow, you know, this is so amazing.
But he just, he didn't really care about that. He, he cared about the actual foundations of, you know, the, the core tenants of our faith. He. He cared about where the Bible came from. And the fact that I couldn't produce an answer sort of left a stone in my shoe, to which I then went back to my parents and I said, hey, dad, you know your story. And he's like, yeah. I said, well, what about the Bible? Like, the Bible's been changed, hasn't it? He goes, oh, son, you just got to believe this is the word of God. I was like, okay, okay. And so I would go to my pastors and my elders and I would say, hey, look, there was this guy, and he challenged me about the Bible.
Why do we trust and read the Bible?
And then they, my elders, they sort of just looked at each other and go, well, you know, the Bible says it's the word of God, so therefore it's the word of God.
And then it started to sort of, you know, really bugged me that, you know, it was a circular answer to a very important question.
And so that started to really frustrate me, and I started to think, well, okay, well, is this actually true?
And then in that same time span, I came across two other people who really challenged my foundations, which ultimately demonstrated that I didn't have any strong foundations.
And my faith came tumbling down.
One of the things that one of my closest Christian friends said to me was that, well, man, you know, it's true because God changed your dad. And I pointed out to him, well, there's so many other people who have been, you know, saved or, or, you know, that have been saved from the alcoholism, from their drug addiction, all the stuff, but they attribute it to a different God, or they attribute it to their own strength, their own will, you know, who. Who are we to believe, you know, when we have the same story coming from multiple different sources, but attributing it to different things?
And so there was just no answers at that point in time. And so in the end, I then thought, well, Christianity is just a bunch of do's and don'ts. And so therefore, why should I listen if there's no substance to it?
And so the added desire of wanting to go my own way, to live life the way that I wanted to, things started to work out in that sort of area. And so if the Bible wasn't accurate, wasn't reliable, if there's many other salvific stories out there that attributed to different people and different things, then I can just go my own way, be God of my own life. And that's what I ended up doing.
I turned my back on Christianity And I actually became anti Christian for about a year because I saw Christians and Christianity as one of the most stupidest things that you could become a part of because there was just no rhyme or reason to it.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Wow.
You had so many growing doubts, and it seems like wherever you turned, you couldn't find those doubts answered. But then you also had desires that were leading you down that. That pathway as well. And it seemed like they combined to create almost a combustive sort of view against Christianity.
Yeah. So that you even became contemptuous of it. That's. I think that that's a very common tale, isn't it?
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah, sadly, yes. Yes. And it's becoming more common on this side of the Pacific Ocean because there's just no. No substance to it. There's a lot of people who are walking away from the Christian faith.
But I remember one time, Jana, that when I was searching, I was sitting there in my lounge and I was YouTubing for videos of where a atheist destroys a Christian. So I typed it into the YouTube search bar. And then a video popped up of this guy who was preaching at a church, and it was Frank Turek.
The first time I'd ever come across Frank Turek. And he said something really interesting. He said that concerning our kids, they talked out of it. They talked out of the Christian faith. He goes, they talked out of it. The reason why they talked out of it is because they were never talked into it. And that sort of struck me like, oh, okay. And then I then listened to one of his longer videos, and it was his debate with Christopher Hitchens, which I found to be powerful. See, see, from. From a Kiwi perspective, you never debate. We were always taught growing up in church, you don't debate the issue. You know, you. You preach the gospel. If they come back with it, you just go, I'll pray for you later. But you don't engage in this intellectual backwards and forwards and testing of your spiritual foundations. And so that one search completely changed, or actually, it opened up a whole new world of Christianity that I've never seen before. And. And so, you know, that video led to another, and that one led to a book. And then, you know, reading all these things and listening to all these people, it just opened a whole world of Christianity.
That was, you know, what we would say in Kiwi, saying, staunch.
Someone who had a tough, strong, staunch faith that they were able to. And keen to actually stand up in public and defend their faith.
That was unheard of in my life up until that point.
And so I just wanted to know more. I wanted to go deeper. And then that's when I found that this wonderful, wonderful word apologetics, and that just changed everything.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: For those who don't know the word apologetics or what that really means. Can you explain that?
[00:30:03] Speaker A: So, first of all, apologetics is not a new thing, and it's something that I really want to hit home with people. Apologetics is not new. It's ancient. The word apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia, which is mentioned in 1st Peter 3, 15.
And there we see, you know, the apostle Peter. He's not the young, fearful, you know, run away three times and, well, deny three times and then run away.
Sort of Peter, he's this mature, this older, more, more onto it. Sort of Peter the apostle, when he writes to the church and he says, you know, the first part a lot of people miss, but make sacred Christ as lord of your heart.
And I say that because in our indigenous language, the phrases whakatapua, akaraiti, he, ariki, rotoyo, koto nako, and it's that very lofty, high view of God. Make God sacred in your hearts, and then always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you why you believe.
And that was huge. You know, it's like one of those verses of where, like, I've heard this before hundreds of times, but it actually hits home. Always be prepared to give an answer, a defense. And that's where the word apologia comes into it. And the image that is supposed to be painted there is one of a lawyer who stands in a court of law, who defends his client, who gives an apologetic, a defense as to why his client is innocent. And this is the same stance that Christians, not. Not just pastors, not just evangelists, Christians, that we are supposed to be able to explain why it is that we believe what we believe. And it's not just a, oh, because it feels nice. Because it satisfies something in my heart that there's a truth that actually comes through. And so this is something that every person, not just the Christian, has to grapple with. How do we answer that? That sent me on a whole new journey to actually trying to figure out, okay, well, what's the basis for all of this? How do we know that Jesus actually, you know, existed? That he died and rose again? How do we know that what we have with our Bibles is actually the same thing that was written 2,000 years ago?
And like I said before, it just. It changed everything for me.
The supernatural, wonderful stories of transformation are Beautiful.
I am so grateful for what the Lord did in my dad's life. But, you know, there's a story in the Bible that I'm reminded of, the rich man in Lazarus. And for those of you who don't know the story, at the very end of it, Lazarus, he's in Hades and he's crying out, you know, saying, oh, send someone back from the dead.
And you know, my brothers, so that they don't come to this place of torment.
And then, you know, the answer is that, well, they have the prophets, they have the word there. If that's not enough, they won't believe. And so what I'm trying to say is that I've seen the hard and gangster and murderer become a blubbering mess on the floor because of the love of God. I've seen healings, I've seen all that sort of stuff, and it's not enough.
It's not enough to sustain someone's faith. We're always looking for something new, and that's what I always saw. Everywhere I went with my dad, they would come because they would get their weekly fix of the miraculous.
Whereas the simple truth that Jesus lived and he died and he rose again to save you from your sin was not something that was overly preached, sadly to say, from the pulpits that I was submitted to, from the pastors that I've submitted to.
And so that's where I think I can sort of say, growing up, I was never really saved because I never really heard the gospel. I heard these wonderful transformation stories, but I never heard the saving message that Jesus came and died for me. Why? Because I'm a sinner who needs saving.
That's the key thing that I think is.
Is missing from a lot of these stories.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Right, Right. Experience is, is very real and palpable for the person experiencing it, but like you say, it doesn't sustain. It may in that person's life because they know they encountered the living God. But as you say, experiences can fade and they cannot be convincing for the other or the outsider. So you have to have some kind of foundational truth to, to ground your. Your belief upon. So where did. You said you. You were introduced to apologetics? Where did that take you? What. Who were some of the influences? I mean, if somebody's out there listening, going, okay, what is this thing? And who, what voices should I listen to? Or. Or where did you go on your search? Can you guide us a little bit there?
[00:35:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So quite a lot of the big names in the apologetics world, Frank Turek, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Greg Kokel, wonderful guy, literally wrote the book on how to have a conversation, a Jesus conversation, and how to tactfully navigate those difficult conversations around reasons why. And then also one of your previous guests as well, Nate Sala, he's also a wonderful guy as well. And just having that conversation around, making apologetics or keeping, rather keeping apologetics Christian, you know, it's not just a theistic, you know, generalized sort of deity that we serve.
We serve a God who has a name, who has revealed himself, and it was him that actually died for us and exchanged our place, exchanged places with us. And so heading down that way, making the apologetic derived from the reality of Christianity, which is based on the Scriptures, I think is a very, very important thing.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Yes. So in your, in your journeying, when you started down this road of, of reading these men who were giving good reason to believe what we believe, that the Bible is reliable, worthy of, of trusting the text, and, and that there's good reason to believe that Jesus died and rose again and those kinds of things did it. Was it just kind of a slow journeying where the people pieces started falling into place again? Obviously there was an openness and a curiosity to move into this space.
I would.
Am I safe to presume that you were open to the truth wherever it led? I mean, that, to be convinced that, that this story of the Bible, of the man, God, Jesus, who came to save that, how did that happen, that you came to believe again that that actually was true based on good reason?
[00:38:22] Speaker A: I was open, you know, like, before I walked away, I wanted to know the truth. I wanted to. No one wants to willingly believe a lie. It's, that's, that's, that's something that I think is very, very true for, for, for most people is that we don't want to willingly believe a lie. And so I was wanting to follow the truth wherever it led. And because of the teaching that I was getting and the answers that I was getting, it gave a, A, a false answer, really.
And so going down the apologetics route, it, it really did it, it threw everything, it put everything on the table you, to look at in terms of the evidences for Christianity, for God. Something that I think that is very clear wherever you are, there's more than just the physical, you know, there's the unseen side of things, there's the, you know, the moral side of things.
There's just so much than what I, I think our current world actually offers.
And so that atheistic materialism just seems absurd. To me right now.
And so coming into contact with all these different voices, with all these different sources really demonstrated that there is an answer to does God exist? And so engaging with those things is where I found that he does most definitely.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: So you, as you were pushing away from God, it was both because of the intellectual doubts as well as your internal desires for something different than the Christian, the Christianity that you were, you know, this rules oriented moralism really how you saw Christianity at the time. But in this time in your life, as you were becoming more open, were you getting a different sense of what Christianity was? That it was more than just a list of rules of do's and don'ts and that it hampered your life?
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Most definitely.
I would say that I didn't really have a grasp on what true Christianity was.
And also for a lot of us who grew up in the church, we tend to piggyback on our parents faith and our parents journey.
And I think God uses, you know, some of these difficult parts in our lives to really cry out to us and to demonstrate that hey, like I'm real, not just for your parents, but also, you know, I'm here for you. Which is, which is something that I think a lot of people miss in that particular journey, if that makes sense.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: So the Christian story gave you more than what you thought it had. It's much more fully orbed. It's life giving. It's not just prohibitive, it's something rich and beautiful and deep experientially as well as intellectually.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: Oh yes, totally. It answers those deep questions that every one of us wonders about.
You know, why am I here? How did everything come to where it is now? You know, it brings purpose, true purpose and meaning to every part of life. And the reason why, I would say is because it's rooted in the truth of who God actually is.
And again, he's not a God who's distant, he's a God who's near, who has revealed himself.
It's a revealed knowledge that we actually have that's God speaking, which is massive, especially coming from the cultural background that I come from, of where rather than having a deity who has revealed himself, it's a look and see and observe sort of knowledge.
So having a God who's taken the time to actually demonstrate who he is to the world, completely different.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: So you moved from a place of kind of anti Christianity for a moment, for about a year I guess in your life and then you went on this path back towards God. And then, since then, and I wondered how long that process took for you, whether it was fairly quick when the pieces fell together and then beyond. You're sitting here as a minister of the gospel, as someone who defends the faith, as an active apologist for Christianity, lead us through, you know, how long did it take to kind of become convinced and, and you heard the gospel and you believed to this place where you not only became convinced, but. But you're giving your life to help others know the same truths that you have found.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: It took a couple of years to really wrap my head around things and to acknowledge that, okay, God, you exist. This isn't just a bunch of lies or stories that have been told to me.
And so, yeah, over about two years of listening and learning and testing some of these things, I came to a personal acceptance that, that this is true and real and tangible. And so I, I, you know, asked the Lord to come into my life for real and to actually change me from the inside out. And. And he did that. He. He dealt with a lot of stuff in my life that I didn't even know was there, which was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. And then from there, I went back to church, tried testing out a few churches as well, because again, that whole thing of divorcing faith from reason was still very much present and still is today. So I went checking out different churches, and then I found a small community church with only probably around about, at the time, 30, 40 people, and submitted myself to the leadership there. Began to grow in my knowledge and understanding of the Word and at the same time learning more of the apologetic side of things as well. And then about four, four years ago, I then took on the role. Well, I was invited to, actually to take on the role as being one of the pastors and Bible teachers of our church, because we don't hold to the single pastor model. At our particular church, we have a group of elders, a group of pastors who collectively pastor the church. And so that's, that's, that's where I got into with that. And at that time, I started to go, man, this apologetic stuff needs that. Like New Zealand needs this. We, we need to get more engaged. And so I tried Googling, couldn't find anything around. I mean, apologetics is so foreign to New Zealand. And then me, with a couple of my friends, we banded together and we created a apologetics organization, only to find a week later that I was looking in the wrong space of the Internet and there was an established organization called Thinking Matters.
And so we said to ourselves, well, why reinvent the wheel? You know, like this is such a wonderful thing. Let's get behind this. And so we did, we, we shut down our particular group which had been running for a couple of years, and then we jumped on board with Thinking Matters as supporters, going to their conferences, promoting their material. And then like with all the general apologetics thing there's here in New Zealand, it's not just the separation of faith from reason, but there is a separation in our nation now of God and what we would say, te ao mori, which is the worldview of the indigenous people.
And so that's the, the particular space in which I've been called into, which is to bring about the. Well, to really demonstrate that God, that Jesus, the gospel is for our indigenous people as well and is not a mode of colonization is what it's commonly labeled today.
And so, yeah, that's, that's the space where I got into. It's just from hanging out with people and being a real nerd in the apologetic space.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: Now you were obviously convinced, like you say, of that God was not only real, but the Christian story and worldview is true. Yeah, it matches with reality and it's something for everyone, not just Westerners or those who have been colonized or whatever. I mean, God came for the whole world, didn't he? Yeah, he loves everyone. And I love hearing your story and I love, you know that you, you have become just such a beautiful ambassador. You're very thoughtful about it. You can tell in your story that you, you're very thoughtful about the way that you approached faith. It wasn't there for you and then you found it and, and you, it, you can tell it, not only thoughtful about what you believe but, but also very moved towards wanting others to know. And there are those who are listening, New Zealand all around the world who, who didn't think, as you didn't think that faith and reason had any connection. That is just some pie in the sky or wishful thinking. Or you choose your God, but that we worship a God that is overall, in all and through all he is, he is the one true and living God. And, and there are those who can hear in your story the sincerity of your belief and, and that you have been convinced and they too would like to take a step forward, but really don't know how.
And you have explored it a bit intellectually and through looking online and reading particular authors.
Obviously you had the example of your family and your father, but how would you encourage someone who's open to perhaps take another look or where would they go? What would they do? What would you suggest?
[00:50:00] Speaker A: I think in a very real sort of way, my prayer is that God would speak to you in a way that you understand, in a way that's meaningful to you.
And if you are searching and still haven't found the answer that you're looking for, keep searching, keep digging, and keep doubting. I mean, if Christianity is true, you know, God can handle your doubts. If God exists, He knows the innermost parts of your thoughts, of your heart, and he can take the questions, he can take the doubts. If you're a Christian, I've got a huge heart. For people who have grown up in the church and in a space of where they just don't know anymore, or maybe they've come to the realization that they never did really believe, that's not a bad thing.
And God is calling you home.
And so, yeah, doubt in the community. Find someone to go on this journey with you.
Read heaps, read lots.
Check out the Bible, check out some of the apologetics organizations that are out there. Go to your pastors, go to your local churches, challenge them, ask them questions, because there are some teachers around, pastors around, people around who have gone through exactly what you're going through and can help you answer or find the answers to some of those questions.
Yeah, but. But I'll be praying for you as well.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: And I'm sure someone, if they're really interested in the work that you're doing and your organization that. That they could connect to you or through you or to Thinking Matters.
[00:52:04] Speaker A: Yep. So if you check out thinking matters.org nz you'll be able to find us there. If you click on the team, you'll be able to find my details there as well. If you do want to reach out, send me an email.
And yeah, we can touch base as well. We've got a lot of good content there as well, and we like to be a. A source of resources, too, so. So if you go check out our website, we'll be able to send you and recommend, you know, different things. We can send you to different organizations or promote certain books that might be helpful to your specific space of questioning.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And when I think about your story and I think about the role that Christians played in your life in terms of helping you to find your way towards this substantive faith. You know, of course, I think of your father and your parents and the family that they. They showed you, in a sense, the reality of God, but couldn't ground in the way that they perhaps should have at the time.
And you even questioned others in the Church and they, they didn't give you good reasons to believe. And obviously you're sitting here as an apologist, you know, providing reasons for the hope that you have in Christ. And I wondered how you can commend the Christian.
Perhaps there, there are Christians out here who are saying, no, you don't need reasons.
But your, your case in point, what's.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Your reason for that?
[00:53:34] Speaker B: We do need reasons and we need, we need reasons because, because of doubt. Like we may not personally have doubt in some of our faith, but all of us have doubts, right? I mean, we have to, to do something with those doubts, to be intellectually honest. And so how would you commend the Christian to engage with doubts, our own doubts or others doubts, or help people along the way towards understanding what's true and real?
[00:54:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say again, that passage, that famous apologetics passage that everybody knows, starts off with a recognition of Jesus as Lord of your heart.
And so if we go to Scripture, we see that Scripture says to love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul, with all your mind, not all or not the mind, the mind is involved with that.
It is a blessing given by God to think and to reason. It's one of the things that makes us human as well.
So think, well, thinking matters. It's a very important part of our existence.
And so firstly to the Christian who might be struggling with the whole reason and faith, it's not an either or, it's a both. And in that sense, but then also in a very real way, biblical faith is not divorced of reason. And even if you go to one passage that people go to is the book of Hebrews.
Read that passage over again slowly and you'll see that the patriarchs and the ancients of the faith, they were not blind in their knowledge of God.
And so, yeah, go, go, go with what Scripture says, man. It's very true and very reliable.
And yet to the non believer, test out the scripture, put it to the test and be consistent as well and be open to follow the truth wherever it leads. And I'm sure that that truth will lead you to Jesus.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful story. Yeah. Truth doesn't fear questioning. And certainly Jesus says that he is truth writing the person and he doesn't fear your questioning either. As you said, you have an amazing story, one that covers a lot of territory. And I love though that the way that you're highlighting that, that the Christianity is really very fully orbed. It's not just heart or mind, it is both. Even the way that we approach God, that we set apart Christ as Lord and we provide reasons. It is all of us. It is fully consuming faith, but it's faith trust based upon good reasons.
So it is, it, it is worth discovering. It is worth investing. You've obviously invested your entire life and, and you're young yet. And I, and I'm sure that there's a lot of work to be done in New Zealand and around the world, but a lot of fruit to be born through people like you who, who understand the fullness of the faith and the riches and the depth that there are and that we don't have to be afraid to explore because it, it feels almost infinite in terms of what there is to know. But yet there is knowledge, you know, and there's still doubts, but there are things that we can know to be true. And Jesus is one of those. So I just thank you so much. You, you've explained the gospel well. You, you have just brought everything together. Thank you so much for coming on and, and, and letting us enter into your journey.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: My pleasure. It's been wonderful. Thank you.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: Jan thanks for tuning in to the Exkeptic Podcast to hear Hinare's story. You can find a link for his ministry in New Zealand called Thinking Matters, as well as his recommended resources in the episode Notes. For questions and feedback about this episode, you can contact me through our
[email protected] that's E X S K-E-P-T-I C.com we do love hearing from you. This podcast is produced through the C.S. lewis Institute and the help of our wonderful producer Ashley Decker, audio engineer Mark Rosara, and ministry assistant Lori Burleson. You can also see these in in video form on our YouTube channel through the excellent work of our video editor Kyle Polk. Jordan Harmon is our amazing graduate graphic designer. If you enjoyed this story on X Skeptic, I hope you'll follow, rate, review and share this podcast with your friends and social network. In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to seeing you next time where we'll hear another unlikely story of belief.
