[00:00:00] Speaker A: My atheist view, my atheist worldview when I was younger was ungrounded. It was all emotions. It was all the things I feared about Christians was what my my worldview then was. It was all fear and emotion driven. My beginning of my relationship with Jesus started in an emotional personal encounter. But the depth of my faith has grown by grounding it into something deeper and real.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hello and thanks for joining in. I'm Jana Harmon and you're listening to X Skeptic, where we hear unlikely stories of belief. Each podcast we listen to someone who has once been an atheist or a skeptic, but who became a Christian against all odds. If you're interested in looking beyond this episode, you can find more than 100 more stories on our Exskeptic website at xskeptic.org and see more of these fascinating stories on our YouTube channel.
We would love to hear more of what you think about these podcasts and stories and what you would like to see on the X Skeptic forum and how we can make it better. Please email
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We often see those who believe, think or live differently than we do through a lens of judgment and often misunderstanding. It's easy to caricature, dismiss or cancel others without truly knowing them. We fall into the trap of assuming negative stereotypes and reinforcing our own beliefs within the comfortable echo chambers of like minded people.
Monica Guzman, in her book I Never Thought of It that Way, reminds us how easily we sort into groups, label others unlike us as the other and then comfortably silo ourselves within our own perspectives without challenge. Whether we mischaracterize religious believers or those who don't believe in God, both sides are guilty of dismissing the other without genuine engagement or respect.
But what if we made space to truly know the other side? What if we paused to understand what they believe and why they believe it? In today's episode we hear from Brian Smith, a former atheist who once made it his mission to demean and antagonize Christians as the Other. Now he's one of them, a devoted follower of Christ. What changed? Join us as we explore his remarkable story.
Welcome to X Skeptic. Brian, it's so great to have you with me today.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Perfect. I know you live locally to me, which is amazing. Why don't you tell me a little bit about who you are, your job, what you're doing right now, your. Your family.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah, my name is Brian I'm the student pastor at Delmony Baptist Church. It is a church in the metro Atlanta area. I've been working in student ministry, I think for 16 years now. I'm. I'm an old man in the student world. My wife Sarah and I have been married for 16 years. We've been kind of doing this, the same thing together. She was saying this summer was like maybe the first summer in 13 or 14 years. She didn't come to camp with me because we have, we have a new baby girl at the house. We have four. Am I still talking about family? I don't know.
Okay. We have four kids. I have an oldest son named Jude, have twin nine year olds and, and twin nine year old boys, they count for like six kids on their own, like collectively. And then we have a little baby girl who's almost two.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Oh, congratulations on that. Sounds like you've got a wonderful home. Full of life. I bet. So let's get into your story. Brian, introduce us to who you are in terms of your childhood, your family of origin, where you grew up, your community. Did you go to church? Was faith or the Bible or God any part of your growing up years?
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So I grew up in South Georgia and a little town called Brunswick, which is the. The mainland of these islands called Saint Simons and Jekyll Island. But I grew up on the marsh. We weren't island people, we were mainlanders, but spent a lot of time out in the coastal world. I was the first man on a fishing boat for a couple summers. That kind of small town, coastal southern world. But no, faith wasn't part of our family at all. I did have a few moments where I would go to church with an aunt or an uncle. I remember I have a cousin named T.J. who, his parents brought me to church with them one time. And what I remember about that experience was I'm playing Hot Wheels underneath the pews. And then I remember in the, like the Sunday school class, I guess afterwards they put shaving cream on the desks and we were supposed to draw pictures in the shaving cream. And I got in trouble because I wrote a swear word in my shaving cream and I wasn't allowed to play on the playground. And that was kind of. It was from elementary school up until eighth grade. Churches wasn't part of our family. Faith wasn't part of our family. We did pray. We had that. We had a prayer at night, but it was that now I lay me down to sleep prayer. And I talked to my students about this. Now there's apparently like a nice version of it. But I knew the scary version of it, which was, now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I awake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. And I remember thinking as we would pray that when I was real little, like, please don't take my soul. Like, I was terrified of that, that little prayer, but that was it. And, and then it being part of being in the south, there were churches all around us and there were church people all around us. And I went to school with a lot of church kids and people who knew Jesus or claimed to follow Jesus, but it never was something that mattered to anyone I cared about, especially when I was. I was really young. And so by the time I got into high school, I had taken the pretty, like, I feel like a pretty educated, like, I thought I was wise stance to be actively against God. I was, I was a antitheist. I would. I wanted to argue with Christians when I was in high school about faith and some of those things. So, yeah, faith wasn't part of our life at all.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: So your parents didn't grow up in any kind of religious or perhaps maybe a nominal Christian culture or family?
[00:06:08] Speaker A: So my dad, my dad is. My dad is one of 14 kids. My, my nanny is what we call my grandma on that side of the family. She was from England. My dad was born in England. And so faith wasn't part of their upbringing at all. My mom was a military kid, and they traveled all around the world. And. Yeah, no, no faith. We didn't have, like, church clothes or Sunday clothes or Easter. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't like we were. My parents were, like, against it in theory. It just wasn't even, you know, considered.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: So you just grew up, you went to church maybe once or twice. Played in this. In the shaving cream.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I went to church then. And then I remember in eighth grade, I went back one more time because it was a church in town that brought in this. This group of people that were called the Power Team. Have you, have you ever heard of the Power Team?
[00:06:52] Speaker B: I have, I have.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: So you say, you know, it's big, huge muscle guys who would break stuff. Like I said, I'm from a small Southern town, so if people are going to show up and break things, you're. You're going to go and watch that. So those were my two major church experiences.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: So the Pat. The Power Team didn't affect you more than just their physical strength?
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Well, to be Fair. They affected me a lot. They looked like WWE wrestlers and they get up and they would, you know, blow up hot water bottles or bend like rebar in the circles. And then they would take time and someone would share their story. And every one of those guys stories were awful with crime and drugs and abuse. And then all of them would talk about Jesus. And it was like, it was affecting to me. But I had this, I had this response a couple times with, with church moments or faith moments where like I was emotionally moved. And then I would, I would talk myself out of it, like, like this is a show and whatever you're feeling is what you would feel. If they did the same thing and talked about anyone else, if it wasn't Jesus, they could put any other name in and you would feel the same thing because that's, that's what this whole, you know, situation was. So in eighth grade at the Power Team, I was moved. I'm pretty sure I was moved to tears. I cry real easy in general, but I also remember thinking, like, this is just a show, like it's just a game.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: So you stepped back from those couple of experiences and you mentioned that you started developing an anti Christian kind of attitude. So you obviously had decided in middle school or whatever that God did not exist or that you weren't going to have any part of that. What informed not only your decision that none of that was true, but also not only that you didn't believe, but you didn't want others to believe as well.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: I, man, this, all this is going to sound so petty. I think when I was, when I was younger, and this is true for most students, teenagers, I had a whole lot of fear in me and I didn't like being afraid. And my response to fear a lot of times is to get angry, like to get mad about being afraid. So, you know, obviously one of our greatest fears is dying. No one likes that idea that death is looming. It's always there behind you. And in some ways I felt like I couldn't get away from that. My uncle was a grave digger. He lived in town. My cousin was my best friend. Uncle Terry buried lots of people. And I would spend time sometimes helping out at funerals and setting out chairs and then sitting in a truck while you watch families grieve. And so death was always there. It was part of our family. Like that's how they made their. Their living. And I hate it. I hate it. Being afraid of death. And it made me. I just got. I would get angry about that. Like, why is this Fear in me. And in the same way, I didn't like feeling socially isolated, or I didn't, like, feel like other people were smarter than I was or more popular than I was. That's like a fear inside of me. And so I would respond to all those things with anger. And so I kind of wrapped all that stuff up together. I wouldn't have said this at the time, Right. This is me talking back, but I was mad at the idea of God because I hated this idea of death. And I was convinced at that time that everyone who prayed or went to church or did any of these things, all of it was them trying to hide from their fear of dying. And they could talk all they wanted to talk, and they could tell me to read whatever books they wanted me to read. But in the end, you were just afraid of dying. And I didn't like that fear in me. Sometimes it made me feel better to try to make other people feel wrong. And I would try to point that out. Like you say, you're inviting me to come to church, but really you're just afraid of dying. And you're doing everything you can to avoid this instead of dealing with it. And I'm going to make a deal with it. I'm going to talk to you about it and bring it up. It was a way of making me feel better than other people because I had a. I had dealt with this fear. I just wanted. Sometimes I wanted to pull people down because it made me feel like I was standing taller. Does that make sense? It just seemed like that was. It seemed like faith is an easier place to. To do that.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: It's ironic that you forced others to face the reality of death.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: But yet you. You yourself were almost projecting your fear. You weren't. You were hiding from your fear of death and making others deal with the reality of death.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: And I knew that's what I was doing. Like, I wanted. I didn't want to be alone in that fear in some ways. And then I wanted to. I wanted to know other people had the same fear. And then I wanted to feel like I had better control over it than they did.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: So if you take God off the table, what did you think happened at death?
[00:11:38] Speaker A: I don't know if I would say this is what I thought happened at death.
What I hoped happened was nothing.
My hope was that all that fear about dying and even fear about eternity because you can't avoid talks about hell, especially growing up in the South, I hoped it was like when you go to sleep and you forgot that you dreamt that was my hope. I remember one time my dad, and he might have been quoting somebody, I don't know. But I remember my dad telling me one time he wasn't sure if there was a heaven, but he knew there was a hell. And that was one of those things that stuck with me too. Like, I don't know what that means. I don't know why you told me that. But now I'm going to think about this a lot. So I.
I hoped that it was nothing. That was my hope.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: So you were antagonistic to Christians by the time you reached high school, I guess, and were distancing yourself from anything religious like that, other than to demean and make yourself feel better.
How long were you in this place?
[00:12:49] Speaker A: I think I look back on it and I can see God doing, like, working around me in ways I couldn't imagine, you know, at the time.
But my whole strategy of like, my plan on being against faith in a lot of ways backfired because I found a group of friends who were all believers that were all Christians. I was a real shallow person, especially in my younger years, and I really wanted to fit in and I want to be part of the crowd that was a crowd that was worth being a part of. And in eighth grade we had to switch schools and I came to a brand new school, which is always hard. They redistricted our town. And so I was at a new school and I felt like I had to figure out fast who was the group that was like the cool group to be a part of.
And those. The cool group just happened to be a bunch of church kids who went to student groups and led music in their church bands and all those things. And so I kind of had to force my way into that group. And they were all awesome. Like, they.
So like, I would talk to my friends about what I didn't believe and why I thought that what they believe was just fear of dying. And they would be like, okay, and then still let me be their friends. They were my friends were friends to me before I was truly ever a friend to them. Like I was still using them for social clout while they were just being kind to me. So all throughout high school, I was the not Christian guy in the Christian friend group. That was kind of the role that I played. Like, someone would talk about God and they would be like, brian, what do you think? I'm like, this is dumb. And everybody would laugh and we would move on. But I just wanted to be a part of that group of friends more than being the smartest like that group. It didn't seem like it worked the same way. In fact, I had, like. I have a journal that I used to write. I kind of did it backwards. Before I was a Christian, I journaled a whole lot. And I wrote in my journal in high school a lot about how I felt empty unless I was with my friends. And all I wanted to do was be with this group of people. And I did everything I could to stay tonight at their houses and be around their families, because as soon as I was a part. As soon as we were separated, it was like I felt. I felt, like, halfway finished. I felt hollow, if that makes sense. And I didn't feel that way when I was around them. So I had shifted my distraction from being, like, angry to being distracted with, like, a friend group.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That's interesting that. That you were drawn to a group of people that seem to have something that you didn't, Something that filled you in some way.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: I was. I was drawn to them initially because they were the cool kids at Jane Macon. When I got there in eighth grade, like, I didn't know anything about them. But as soon as I got to know, especially this group of guys, the more I was like, I want to stay with these people. Like, I feel better. My life is better when I'm with these people than I'm. When I'm not with these people.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's great. It seems like they. They didn't judge you. They included you, but challenged you in all the right ways. So that was during high school. And I would imagine that that antagonism softened as you became friends with. With people who called themselves Christians, followers of Jesus. It was. It would probably be hard to. To be antagonistic to those whom you really liked.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: I was.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Or would you?
[00:16:09] Speaker A: I was. I was kind to my friends and antagonistic to everyone else. I would be approached sometimes with church kids that weren't in my friend group, and I could care less about those people. And I would go back to my old like, you're dumb, I'm smart, I can prove you wrong kind of mentality. But with my friends, I was so desperate for, like, belonging and for the community they provided that I didn't want to do anything to mess that part up.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: So in terms of proving others wrong, did you justify your own. Did you call yourself an atheist? And did you justify your own worldview? And how did you do that? If you were proving someone wrong? Was it tearing down Christianity or was it just substantiating your. Your God bless worldview.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I claimed, like, that title of atheist because I thought it sounded cool. Like, I liked being the contrarian, and I wanted people to know that. So part of me was claiming it because I. I wanted to feel like that. That niche, like that social spot. I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. I just liked being the contrarian. So I did claim that. And a lot of times I wasn't attacking people's word. I didn't have the words or the. The language to even talk about, like, worldview and faith and foundational beliefs and those things. So really what I would do is I would try to attack people. So just. This is so shallow, but, you know, hope that someone said something that was clearly wrong and then just make a big deal out of that and say, I can't. How could anyone trust you with anything else if you can't get this one simple thing right?
So a lot of it, you know, I would say now a lot of ad hominem non sequiturs, like, just to make other people in the room laugh. I found my social place, apart from my friend group, as being the antagonist in the classroom and in the world. So a lot of what I was doing was just trying to make people I didn't care about laugh for a moment by being mean to someone else.
And in the south, it's one of the easiest ways you can poke people is to bring up faith, because faith is so meaningful to people. So I was a. I was a mean class clown.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: I see.
Yeah, I think we see that a lot still in culture, don't we?
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: That's an easy, easy thing to do. Easy default. So as you were going along and you really hadn't substantiated your worldview, but you found it easy, an easy place to be in terms of your identity and. And that sort of thing. How did you move along? What did your life look?
Did what caused you to potentially change your mind or open you to another point of view?
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you said it earlier, like, I love my family, but my parents, they fought my whole life. They lived in separate rooms.
They ended up separating after I was married, like, a long time later, but they were never together. I just. I didn't like being at home. Like, never felt like I was at home at home, especially when I was in high school. But I had these other friends who, like, they felt. They did feel solid when I felt hollow. And there would be times where I would be hanging out with some of these guys, and I would think, like, these people feel more real than I do and, like, I'm faking it and they're not. And, you know, after a while of, like, feeling incomplete, like, feeling hollow feeling, you start to want, like, what it. What you do. I did start to think, like, why does Alex feel, like, why is he. Why does he not have to be mean to make other people like him? Like, why is this? And there. I didn't know what it was, but there definitely was something different about them. And so, yeah, I mean, over. It took a while to, you know, four years. But over time, it started to wear me down. And. And then that sounds bad. Wear me down sounds bad. But it wasn't a bad wearing down. It was a, like a trust thing. Like, they're not going to change. They're not fake. They're not going to betray you. Like, they really are who they say they are, and they really are the kind of people they're acting like they are. And so they help me, I guess, be more confident and free in my. My doubts and my fears. There are some pretty significant things that my friends did on my behalf that ultimately, like, kind of opened up my heart to hear about the gospel and about faith and to truly consider that maybe all of it wasn't a scam, that there was more to it.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to hear that.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: So this same thing, this is. I feel like this is such a specific, small town, embarrassing thing. I'm gonna go back just a little bit further too. I have a learning disability that's called dysgraphia, which is not, like, super rare, but it is a. It's a written expression disability. And it means that what I can communicate clearly with words, I struggle to communicate with in writing. So it's almost like inverse dyslexia. So the stuff that comes out of me in writing is chaos. And there was. I had a whole lot of struggles with that as a kid because I would read at a super high level and then I would do awful in school. And the school system I was in was trying to do their best to figure out how to serve me. So I was part of the advanced placement programs, the gifted programs, and I was part of, like, special needs LD learning disability classes. And I hated it. I hated it so much. A lot of my, like, wanting to be smarter than everyone was stemming from, like, that thing where it's like, you can't be in advanced classes and in slow classes at the same time. And I didn't. I wanted to prove I didn't need to be in that place. I would tell my high school teachers, I'm too smart to be in this class. I'm too smart to be in this little town. I'm not going to do any part of school that I don't think is worth doing. So anything I consider busy work, I'm not going to do. And if you want to fail me, fail me. I don't care. My senior year of high school, I was in a sociology class with a teacher named Ms. McNair. And as a class, I needed to pass to graduate. And I either had a 30 or a 40. I can't remember. You know, I'm off by a deviation of 10 somewhere in there. But a 30 or 40 in that class, and there was no more time. There was, like, class was over. The last week of school for me in high school was all graduation rehearsals. So no more assignments, no extra credits. It's a class I needed to graduate or to pass to graduate high school. And I wasn't even close. And I didn't even go talk to Ms. McNair because I was too proud in that moment. I didn't go beg and ask for help. I just went home and hoped that nobody would find out that I wasn't gonna graduate high school. So we'd have graduation rehearsals. And I remember there was times where an administrator would walk into the graduation rehearsal and tap someone on the shoulder and walk them out. And we would all be like, oh, that kid's not graduating.
Which was a huge problem in my high school at the time. And I thought, man, they're gonna. They're gonna make a scene of me in this moment. They're come tap my shoulders and all this, like, fake stuff that I have built up, that I'm smarter than everybody, all of it's gonna collapse when that. When they come and pull me out of graduation. And I never did. Graduation night, I was. I was. I was terrified. Everyone else was celebrating, and they were so excited, and I was. And this is it. Like, they're gonna not just embarrass me in front of my friends. They're gonna embarrass me in front of the whole school. And part of it was I felt like I deserved it because I knew. Like, I knew how much of a sham I was, and I was afraid that the adults did, too. But they, like, they called my name and they gave me a diploma. I cannot tell you how relieved I was. I could not. But I thought.
I thought two things. One was, oh, my goodness, this happened. Like, I can't believe it worked. And also, maybe I am smarter than ever. Maybe I did. Maybe I faked this. All these people out. So graduate high school. Luckily, somehow, by the skin of my teeth, it felt like. And that friend group that I was a part of, they were a lot of musicians, and they were invited to come and help a church in town, First Baptist Brunswick, start a. Like, a contemporary worship service, a modern worship service. And they needed someone to run sound for, like, a band, Like a more, you know, rock and roll band kind of experience. And so my friends convinced First Baptist they should hire me to come and run sound for them.
And So I got $50 a week to go to this church and run sound as my friends were, you know, leading music at the church. And one of the Sundays, I was up in the balcony in the sound booth, and I saw another one of my teachers. Her name was Ms. Griner. She was an economics teacher. And if you were to quiz me about economics right now, I. I don't. I don't know anything. I slept through her class.
I went and saw her, and I said, hey, Ms. Griner, I. Let me ask you a question. Like, say. Say, like, a student needed, like, 30 points to pass a class, and he didn't do anything for it. Like, how would he graduate? Like, how would it work out that. That he would be in the situation, right? And she's like, are you talking about Ms. McNair's class? And I was like, yeah, how do you know? Right? Because there was a moment of. Of, like, fear there. Like, someone that I didn't think would. Knew about my situation, knew the details of my stuff. And I was like, how do you. Yeah, how do you know about this? And she said, well, your friend Alex and Marcus and TJ Came and told me. Like, they. They knew what was happening because Ms. McNair had told them the teacher guided. Been super rude to. I told my friends they had gone to Ms. Griner to ask what they should do. And Ms. Griner said, like, they all prayed for me, and she sent my friends back to my teacher. And my friends begged Ms. McNair, the teacher that I had been so rude to. They just begged her on my. Like, when I was too prideful to even go and ask for help, they wouldn't beg for help for me.
And they're the ones that convince her. I don't even know what they said. I asked my friend Alex about it a couple weeks ago, and he was like, we just thought, like, you had more in you than this, like, person that you. You had Been. But I asked Ms. Griner. She told me that whole story at church that one Sunday. And it, like, that was the most pivotal moment for me, like, in. In. In faith, because I'd heard the preacher. I never really heard the Bible, never heard anything until I started working at the church. I heard him talking about Jesus, like, dying in her place and doing the things for us that we can't do for ourselves. And none of that made any sense to me until I talked to Ms. Griner. And my, like, my friends had done that exact same thing for me. Like, when I was too prideful, I was so filled with my own pride and my own fear that I wouldn't go help myself. My friends went on my behalf and, like, swallowed their pride.
And like, I don't know, hearing that, it definitely, like, broke open that. That stone heart that was in me in a pretty, Pretty big way.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: And that's amazing that you had those friends who advocated on your behalf and that you were given something that you didn't deserve, that you were given. You were. You were given mercy and you were given grace in that moment. And I guess that helped you understand Jesus and what he had done for you. Were you able to connect the dots then as you were sitting in church Sunday after Sunday, hearing the message of grace?
[00:27:24] Speaker A: There's a moment in the Bible where Jesus is. He's in a house and it's packed. People are listening to him teach. And there's a group of friends who have a paralyzed friend and they try to bring them in. And the building is filled with Pharisees and religious leaders, and they won't let this sick person in to see Jesus. And there's no room. And so the friends climb on the roof and they tear a hole in the roof and they lower the. The man down in front of Jesus. And. And we. Sometimes we talk about that story in church where you tear off the roof to bring your friends to Jesus. And we think, like, that's like a over exaggeration. But it's. It's literally what my friends did for. I guess not literally didn't tear the roof off, but, like, I was just as helpless as that person in the story was. And they were. They were just as determined to not give up on me, coming to. To know the. The Jesus that they. They knew. And they did. They invited me to stuff all the time. And I told them no. Like, we were so tight, but I wouldn't go to any of their camps and I wouldn't go to any of their events, and I didn't want to be around their church friends. Like, and then. And they never, like, they never gave up on me. Like, they, they, they claimed me. They're like, we're gonna not give up on Brian until he gets to this place where he meets Jesus. And, yeah, I mean, it totally opened up. It just changed the way I felt about everything. I remember when I started working at that church, I talked to my dad about it. I was like, yeah, they're gonna pay me. I get $50 for like an hour, like, two hours of work to do nothing. It was easy, you know, like three microphones and four instruments. Nothing. Like, the task was a super easy task. But I remember him telling me to be careful, because church people always want something from you. Like, at some point, it's going to be about, like, they're paying you or they're going to ask for some of that money back. Like, just be prepared. And I kind of went in with that experience, but the same thing I found with my friend group. And I know not all churches are great. I know people have a lot of hurt and pains. The First Baptist, Brunswick. When I went there, that church immediately welcomed me and were kind to me and loved me, even though I was, like, rude to their grandkids and, like, people knew I was, and they were still really welcoming and kind. And so that started to soften my heart that that moment with Ms. Griner was a major one as well. It made me want to lean in more, that maybe all these church folks weren't like, scam artists. Like, maybe there was something real. And if my friends are this way and these other people that I don't even know are this way, then, yeah, maybe there's something more to this than what I've kind of always assumed it was. Like, maybe this isn't all about fear and anger. Maybe there's something, you know, more behind it. So those things, yeah, totally started to creep into my thoughts at the time.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So you became more open to hear what they were saying because you felt. You felt that there was something real, that it would. There was something much more sincere, more. Much more than scam artists and hypocrites who just want something from you. That there was actually something for you there that was. That was real and that it was tangible. So how long were you sitting under this teaching before you.
You decided there it was something real and it was something for you?
[00:30:40] Speaker A: I want to say it was about a year. It was a summer to summer almost. I had to listen to the sermons as the preacher was. Was Preaching. And so the people were different. Like, the, the kindness of the church and the, the community of the church was something I, I didn't know that I needed. But I was like, oh man, this is. It was like finding water for the first time in some ways. And I was like, oh, this is, this is what it's supposed. Like, this is what it's supposed to be. Like when people love each other. Like it isn't a separate rooms and yelling at each other. It's something different. Right. So that softened me. And then I thought I had knew the Bible. Like, I, if you would have asked me in high school, I would have said, yeah, I know the whole thing. I would have lied. I would have told you. I read it cover to cover, which wasn't true. But I'm like, I know all of it and it's all dumb, but it was the first time I, I had like, heard someone talk through like story, like stories like, you know, Noah and the flood, or, you know, Moses and Exodus or David and go like, all things I knew the outlines of. But I heard someone talk to him about it in a real way. And Tim Noble is a pastor. He went out of his way every Sunday to make sure that he drew a line between whatever he was talking about and Jesus. So any obscure part of the Old Testament, he would always bring it to Jesus. So I saw the Christians were different. I saw the Bible was different, that it wasn't what I thought it was. And that made me lean in closer. So my friends, the church community, and then the Scriptures all kind of like my assumptions of what Christians were like was all wrong. And it was all different than what I thought it was. Like I had this dumb parody of what I thought faith and faith people were. And when I saw the real thing, it was so much my parody view of it was so weak compared to the realness of what I was experiencing, that it, it shifted things inside of me in a pretty big way.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess you wanted in some ways to, to know the Jesus that they knew because you could see in their life that they weren't shallow, that, that there was something deep, there was something real there in their life that that was making a tremendous difference. And all of these paradigms were being turned over. Your view of Christians, your view of church, your view of the Bible. And so. And I guess ultimately your view of Christ.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah, the, the, the Sunday that I, like, I became a Christian, like, the Sunday I, like, I prayed that prayer of salvation. Like, I remember that moment.
I remember it pretty Vividly. I was up in the sound booth and Tim was. He was walking through the book of Romans. Verses from the book of Romans. I didn't know then, but now I. Now I know that people call that like the Romans road. He was walking through all the steps of salvation and the story of the gospel. And I was up in the sound booth and I was listening to all of it, and it was like gut punch after gut punch of all these things. And the way I remember him talking about it was like, so all have sinned. Romans 3, 23. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the God. That means all of us have sinned. Take a moment church, and ask yourself, is this true of you? And I'm up in the sound booth and I'm like, yeah, I know this is true of me. Like, I can. I can. I can look around this little town I'm in and see all the people that I've hurt and the. The hurt that I've caused and the anger and the probably I felt it all, you know, and the gift of. Or the consequences of sin is death. And that's a just consequence. And I felt that. Like, I. That is. That this is true. That's what I deserve. All that fear of dying, all that stuff is overflowing from that thing inside me that's broken. Like, he walked through all those scriptures and he got to the end. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. And he did the old regular altar call, like, hey, if you're here this morning and you want to pray to receive Jesus, then stand up and come to the front. And people are standing up and going to the front. And I was like, I was broken in that moment. I was like snot nose crying in that moment. And I stood up, up in that balcony to go down to the sound booth. I mean, to go down to the front. And when I stood up, I felt that. That same pride, like, kick in again. I told myself, like, dude, you are like, you are smarter than this. This is. That's what this guy, this is his whole job. He puts on a fancy suit and they play all these music and they turn down the lights. They do all this stuff to manipulate you. And you know, this, like, you. You like, you know, that's what's happening in this moment. And I got real mad and I sat back down and I was real frustrated with myself because I felt like I had almost crossed, like this, you know, almost jumped in the pool, you know, almost drank the Kool Aid. Like, I almost fell for the. The gag or the scam.
And so as soon as church was over, I got in my car and I was heading home. And I was mad at myself, and I was mad at the church, and I was mad at them for making me feel this way. And, like, talking about eternity, like, I was mad at all that those things were happening in the moment. I was driving home and I was overwhelmed. And in my. In that moment in my car, I had to pull my car over on the side of the road because I couldn't go forward. Like, I felt like I had to stop and I didn't know what to do. And I was, like, just weeping in my car. And I prayed. Maybe my first prayer. I mean, God is kind, and I hope some of my little kid prayers, he, you know, I heard and responded to as well. But it felt like the real prayer to me. But I prayed, jesus, if you're real, save me. That was why I didn't even believe that he was real. I just. I did. I couldn't go forward.
I couldn't go back to, like, you know, I mean, I couldn't go back home, back to where I was, and I didn't know what to do. And I was just. That was my cry. Like, Jesus, if you're real, like, please be real if you're real, saved me. And he did. Like, you know, he did. I obviously wasn't, you know, perfect right away, but I definitely came home from church that Sunday a different person than I was. When I left that Sunday. My whole. My whole life kind of hinged on that moment. My family, my kids, my daughter. I was talking about, like, none of those things would be all the things in my life that matter most. I wouldn't have if it wasn't for that moment on the side of the road.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: So there was that moment, I guess you.
You. You felt, or you were saved by Jesus.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: And. And you felt that something was different and. And obviously it changed your life tremendously and, like you say, gave you everything that you have now. Talk with me about what that life is like. Do you feel that you.
You found whatever your friends had in high school that. That thing that seemed elusive to you, that they had, you didn't. You were attracted to it. Did you find that depth of life in Christ once you surrendered to him?
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, like, I. Like I said earlier, it felt like.
It felt like I was starving and I didn't know it until I had food for the first time or it felt like I was, like, dehydrated and I Didn't know it until you drank water for the first. Like, that's, that's what it felt like to me. Like, oh, all this stuff, all the things that I was feeling, I found a source that satisfied those.
Those longings that I didn't even know were longings. Do you know what I mean? Like, this stuff that I just assumed was part of who I was and I was convinced had to be part of everybody else were real, you know, needs or desires that had a.
That had a, like, solution or had a. A way to solve. And, and it. It took a long time to, to, to.
Obviously we're all maturing and we're all growing and going through the sanctification process, all that stuff. But I jumped in real hard because I was. I was desperate and I didn't even know it. I didn't know it at the time until I found, like, the thing. So when I met Jesus, I was like, I need more. I need. I don't know. I don't know if I believe in the Bible. I don't know if I believe in it. I didn't at the time. I never believed in anything else. I just knew that I had this moment with Jesus and it was the realest thing that had. And I wanted more of that. The closer I am to Jesus, the more everything else starts to grow and make sense, right? The more I become, like, you know, Christ, the more I become the person that God created us to be. And that's the, you know, the process. But, yeah, I jumped in real hard because I had found. I had found something I didn't know I was looking for, and I had found something that meant it. Parts of me I didn't even know were broken and I didn't ever want to, you know, let up from that.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: So what of your fear of death that you had as a child that had haunted you for so long?
[00:39:12] Speaker A: It's heartbreaking and it's awful. And everyone's weeping and everyone's crying like you. You shoot should cry.
So, like, the pain, like, the fear of death is always going to be a part of it because it's not natural, right? It's this. It's a consequence of sin. It's not the way it was supposed to be. It's what Jesus came to solve. So the. All of that's there, but there's a hope that's, like, stronger than the fear. And that's. That's the whole thing. I don't know that I still have fear. I think everyone does and should, but that Hope that I have now is so much stronger. Like, the hope feels more real than the fear does now.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: We don't grieve as, as if we have no hope. We do have hope in Christ because he has, as you mentioned earlier, he died and he rose again.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: We do weep and we do grieved that everything Jesus experienced, we get to experience. And he wept at the death of Lazarus, even though he knew what he was going to do. Jesus wept. And if he wept, so should we. And we should grieve, just like Thessalonians tells. But we just, we don't grieve without hope. We grieve and we cling to hope.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's beautiful. So, and I'm, and I'm sitting here, Brian, listening to your beautiful story and so happy for you that you have found life in Christ and everything that was so, again elusive you have found.
And I'm, I'm thinking of the, the skeptic out there saying, you know, you even mentioned that when you first accepted Christ and, and God was real and you called out to him to save you if he's real. And there was a very palpable moment there and you weren't even really sure that you believed everything in the Bible, all of that. But what if the skeptic is saying, well, that all sounds good and it feels good and you're with a great group and everybody loves each other, Kumbaya, and you don't have any more fear of death and you have a great story, but how do you know it's true? I mean, you know, what, what, what about all, you know, you pushed back when you were an atheist. Where's all that now?
[00:41:17] Speaker A: Yes. You know what's wild is all the things I'm saying now I would have ignored when I was in high school. It would have not made a difference to me because I could rationalize.
I could rationalize everything I, like, I'm currently saying back to that lens of fear and anger. Like, it, it's not hard, right? Like, it's an easy place to get to.
What I can, what I can say for me is. And I know personal experience is not universal. What I would say though is what, what becoming a follower of Jesus did for me was it opened me up to a whole other like, like I would say world view now. Like a school thought, right? Like, I didn't, that I didn't even think was. It was an option when, when I became a follower of Jesus, the. I got, I got two books, right, that, that week. One was blue like jazz. But I got mere Christianity. And it rocked my world that there were intelligent Christians. Like, there was. There was a depth to. To Christianity and faith that was so much deeper than my shallow view of everything. And, and like, I mean, there. The amount of, like, real philosophy and. And real theology and real discussions that are. That are. That are happening is so much deeper than a shallow. My. At least my shallow atheist view. So I can't. I don't. I don't know for every skeptic, but I'm. I'm assuming there are people out there that were. That are probably more like me. Just like, I don't trust these people. They're all fake. Everything they believe is dumb. Like, the more you dig into it, the deeper you'll. You'll see that it is. And you can always discredit it. You can always write it off if you feel like it, but it's not shallow. Like, it is so much deeper than we think. I know you guys being part of the C.S. lewis, you know, Institute is a big part of it, but that C.S. lewis did both of those things so well. He.
He does the intellect and the. The story. Like, the. Here's the true myth. Like, here's something you always long for. We all. We all watch movies, we all sing these songs because there's something inside of us that desires the myth. And here's the one myth that's the true myth. But you don't just have to take it on pure faith. There's like an intellect that goes with it. And I think the. Lewis's work, like, he. He does the best at combining those things. There's a. There's another podcaster. His name's Alex Oconnor. I love listening to him talk. I listen to his podcast pretty regularly. But he'll. He'll bring up Lewis's argument from desire and talk about how, like, how much he respects his position. Like, I don't. I don't. I'm not gonna say he's right, but I can't argue against Lewis's positions. And I would say, you know, if. If you're a skeptic out there, look at some of those, you know, resources. Read God in the Doc. It's a real short essay that, like, still sticks with me, you know, today. The. I believe in Jesus like I believe in the Son. Not because I can see it, but because of Him. I can see everything else. Like it's a foundational shift and all for. But the thing. For me, all that came afterwards. It was afterwards that I. I was able to ground.
I guess I would say this my atheist view, my atheist worldview when I was younger was ungrounded. It was all emotions. It was all the things I feared about Christians was what my, my worldview then was. It was all fear and emotion driven. And my beginning of my relationship with Jesus started in an emotional personal encounter. But the depth of my faith has grown by grounding it into something deeper and real. Like my, I would say my worldview now is less emotional than it was when I was an atheist, even though it began with a one on one moment. So I would encourage everyone to look.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: In those places, turning the page here for a moment and thinking of yourself and your former self and those who are still out there. You, you've referred to those who may still not be accepting looking at Christianity as a, in a parody sort of way, you know, maybe pushing back because of their own fears and anger, even in themselves.
How would you encourage someone who, who is really pushing back or viewing Christianity in a shallow sense, how would you encourage them to take a closer look like you eventually did?
[00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard, it's a hard thing to do. But I would say like go spend time with the church people. Like you can be whatever you can identify however you want to identify and you know, have whatever worldview you want to have or lack of worldview you want to have any, anything in between. But go visit like five different churches and pick five different, like crazy different churches because some of them are going to be awful. Like in all honesty, you're going to walk into some places and there are going to be people who claim the name of Jesus who are awful.
But you can find some just small local church and step in. And man, I hope at least that the people in those churches would love you the same way that the people in the churches love me when I, when I first started. But I think a part of it was just like you always think the people who believe different than you are weird or strange until you spend time with them. And I would say, you know, if you're against faith, if you're against God and you know, Jesus in particular, that's fine, that's a choice in a position you can, you can have. But go spend time with like the real followers, like the real Christians and, and you know, the real Christian looks like. You can't tell obviously from the outside, but it's little old ladies that pray non stop who will like go out of their way to care for you. Like it's real hard to not feel loved. When there's 80 year olds who know everything about you and want to know how your family's doing and will pray for you even if you can give them nothing back, you know, it's hard to say no to those people or, you know, teenagers who are just on fire in their faith.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that that's excellent. And perhaps even pick up a copy of Mere Christianity by yes, Lewis, or even the Chronicles of Narnia. Right.
And you work in the world of student ministry, so you're constantly encountering probably a lot of pushback, a lot of interaction and engagement with people who don't believe or who they're just checking it out or, you know, or may have a lot of issues in their past, you know, that make it hard emotionally. Like you had some emotional issues to work through, some angers and fear. Anger and fears that cause you to push back from God. There's so many things. But then I think of, of those wonderful friends that God brought into your life that helped you see that life could be different, that life in Christ could look very different. And they were very faithful and advocated for you in, in the most vulnerable place.
Um, and, and what a difference that made for you. It was your turn of faith. How can you recommend to us as Christians how to engage with people who don't believe? Or even, I think you just mentioned those 80 year olds who love on and pray, you know, for people who don't expect it, you know.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Yeah, the, the biggest thing, the biggest thing my friends did for me was they invited me and they included me, even though I never ever accepted any of their invitations until I got, until someone paid me to go. Right.
And it didn't, at least for me at the time, it didn't feel bad. And that's why I encourage our students is like invite your friends. Invite your, your friends of different faiths and different beliefs and of no beliefs. Just let them know that you care about them and you want to include them. I tell our, our, the student ministry volunteers all the time that one of the greatest gifts that we, we give students is consistency. Like, you don't have to be the greatest leader, the deepest leader or the smartest or coolest, youngest or hippest or whatever. You just got to kind of keep showing up, right? You just got to be consistently there consistently in their life, consistently in their room on Sunday morning, because we're gonna be here. And that's one of the best things you can do for your friends that don't believe. Like, don't be afraid to talk about your faith because you know, they don't believe in it and don't be afraid to invite them to things because, you know they don't believe in it. That, that consistent. Hey, you should come and join us. It wins. It wins over a lot of folks, even if they never ever say yes, you know, because it means you really do care. Right. This is something that really matters to me. And since it matters to me, I want it to matter, you know, to you as well. So, yes, one of those best things. Just invite your friends, talk to them about faith, ask them if you can pray for them even if they don't, you know, care if you do or don't. Like, just be consistent in your, in your faith. And over time that, that stuff wins.
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautiful. You know, being a, being an includer, as a friend of mine says. Yeah, always be an includer, not an excluder. Just, just err on the side of, of inviting.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: And you know that John Maxwell has that, that quote that, you know, you want more, you want to want more for people than you want from people.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: And I think that's part of, that was part of my fear with church was that they were going to try to take. And I know Christians can do that sometimes where it's like, maybe you're just trying to save someone so you can add to a list, but that's not the goal. It's like I just. You invite your friends, you tear off the roof, right? You do everything you can to bring your friends to a place where they can encounter Jesus because you want something so much more for them than you're ever going to get from them. So I think you can, you can be an includer with the wrong motives and the right motives, you know, so the right motive, includer. Yeah, that's a, that's a game changer.
[00:51:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's obvious to me that, you know, you, you have found abundant life in Christ and that you want that for others. And that is, that is your heart motivation, and that's why you're here today really, is to tell your story to, to let people know that that's for them too.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what we tell, like John 10:10, we. I bring it up in student ministry all the time that there's a thief who wants to steal, kill and destroy. He wants to take life from you. But Jesus said, I had life in abundance. And the way I explain it to students is like, he has overflowing life, like, and we all want purpose, like every, every Person with, like, blood in their veins and air in their lungs. They're longing for purpose and belonging and. And life. And Jesus is like, I have. I'm overflowing with life. I have more than you can handle. Right. That said that. Yeah, that's. That's what we're asking. That's what we're inviting our friend. We're not inviting our friends to church or inviting them to come to, like, a prayer group or whatever. We're inviting them to. To a place where they can experience overflowing life. And that is a. That's a much different motivation. Like, that changes the conversation, at least to me and the students that we get to lead.
Yeah.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: Oh, wow. What a blessing you must be to the students there in your ministry. No, honestly, because I'm going to tell.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: Everyone you said that. I want to say Janice said that I was a blessing to y'all.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: That's true. Because I think you're. You're. You're. You're frankly, honest and transparent, you know, about your prior struggles and who you are, and. And you came humbly and, you know, almost like Lewis, too, fighting and kicking and screaming like, you know, he was the most reluctant convert in England. And you came. It wasn't against your will, but you had to be paid to come.
[00:53:15] Speaker A: You know, maybe bribed into it.
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Yeah, bribed into it. But then you found life. You found. You found what you knew your heart was longing for and searching for, and it happened to be real and true. And. And that's. That's really a beautiful thing.
Thank you so much, Brian.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:53:34] Speaker B: I love your story. I love your testimony. There's no doubt that so many people are going to connect with your story, not only on your fears and your resistance, but your longings, your desires for something more that seemed so elusive. But then, you know, the abundance that you've found in Christ and really the. Again, the humble and transparent desire of your heart for others to know what you found. It really is. Is just wonderful. And I. I do hope by others listening, that they accept that invitation that you're bringing for everyone who's listening, that there's something there for them. There's an invitation that's offered on the table in abundant life in Christ that you're inviting them into. And I just want to thank you for coming in and really sharing your story with us today.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much. It was an honor.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Wonderful.
Thanks for tuning into the Ex Skeptic podcast to hear Brian Smith's story. You can find out more about his recommended resources in the episode notes. For questions and feedback about this episode, you can contact me again. Our email address is infoxkeptic.com we'd love hearing from you.
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This podcast is produced through the C.S. lewis Institute and the help of our wonderful producer Ashley Decker, audio engineer Mark Rosara, and Ministry Assistant Lori Burleson. You can also see these podcasts in video form on our YouTube channel through the excellent work of our video editor Kyle Polk. Jordan Harmon is our amazing graphic designer. If you enjoyed this story on Ex Skeptic, I hope you'll follow rate and review. Then share this episode with your friends and social network. In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to seeing you next time where we'll hear another unlikely story of belief.
