[00:00:02] Speaker A: But, you know, I would have called myself at that point a non believer, an atheist, because it's like I don't want God to exist. So I'm not necessarily a full blown anger towards God. I didn't really understand God. God was this very intangible thing.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Hello and thanks for joining in. I'm Dana Harmon and you're listening to stories where we see how skeptics flip the record of their lives. Each podcast, we listen to someone who has once been an atheist or skeptic, but who became a Christian against all odds. You can hear more of these stories on our
[email protected] and you can see them on our YouTube channel. We love hearing your feedback on those forums or through our email at
[email protected]. There's something extraordinary about a dramatic life change when someone's before looks radically different than their after. We lean in and we want to know what happened in the context of religious conversion, in this case, from atheism to Christianity, you would expect an observable change in the way that someone thinks and lives, and that's typically what you find. Everything changes, and not in subtle ways. Life looks and feels different in very significant ways. Former atheist John Wilkey says that his life is hardly recognizable from the man he was before he met Jesus Christ and the man of God he has become afterward. Once he experienced the overwhelming love and forgiveness of God, his life has never been the same. I hope you'll come along to hear his story of transformation.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: Welcome to cybee Stories, John. It's so great to have you with me today.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Thank you for the invitation, Jana. It's always a pleasure to be able to share what God's done in my life. And maybe somebody who's listening or watching will be encouraged by my testimony.
[00:01:54] Speaker C: Oh, I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will.
Tell us, before we get into your story, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself now?
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Thank you.
Professionally, I am a media relations guy, so I work with a lot of reporters who want to talk to ministries and see what God's doing and then through those ministries, fear more about how I got into that. Maybe later. But I'm a dad. I'm a middle aged dad, and I love being a dad. I have eleven year old and 14 year old girls, and the essence of who I am is as a father. So I'm kind of your standard middle aged guy with two kids and take them to the park, we go to the pool, we ride bicycles, we ride skateboards to take them rock climbing, that kind of stuff.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Well, that sounds fun. Sometimes as an adult, it's really great to have kids. They just keep you young.
All right, let's start your story now. Tell me about your family, where you were born, your home life.
Was it religious at all? Did they talk about God? Did you go to church?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: What did that look like.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: I grew up in a large Southern family, so there's a cultural side of religion that's in there. We had a giant Bible on our coffee table. We occasionally went to church. VBS Vacation Bible School was a great daycare for working families that they could drop their kids off for a week at a time. So I had some of those experiences. But my family I have six brothers, four sisters. I come from a family where my mother was widowed, and then a couple of things didn't work out. And so I am the baby boy of eleven. I have a younger sister. I have six older brothers that are all really big, macho, tough guys. But as far as religion, we would say grace at family functions. My uncle would share a prayer, but it's just real simple, basic cultural Christianity here in the south.
But you grow up with this understanding about what's a little bit of right and wrong, what's a little bit of morality, but not necessarily anything that's gospel focused. My sister and I have had many conversations, Jana, about we're so thankful that the Lord rescued us from where we grew up from. A lot of times you can tell a lot about a person about where they came from and where they left and where they live now. But my best friend growing up, my whole childhood, he died of a drug overdose when he was 19, and that could have been me easily. The county I'm from in Kentucky is called Buellenburg County, but it's jokingly referred to in a sad way as Methanburg County.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Oh, my.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: There's a lot of drug use, and so we're really thankful for being able to escape that and get out of you know, as far as religion goes, we kind of knew who Jesus was, but it wasn't something that our family took serious. There were some token displays of religion, as pretty much most Southern families know.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: So you had some kind of touch points of God or church and VBS did you have any sense even as a child, did you pray to God? Did you believe in God? Did you believe what they were saying?
[00:05:04] Speaker A: I felt like I had a religious experience when I was about seven years old, I was at a vacation Bible school. But I remember my best friend at the time, a guy named Derek, he professed Christ and then walked down the aisle to get baptized. And we played baseball, we rode motorcycles, and we were always very competitive friendship. So part of me, I mean, I walked down an aisle when I was like seven and I got baptized, but it didn't stick. There was nothing really there.
I had a couple of points in my, I would say, middle school years where I began to just kind of take a look at the Bible. I remember reading some stuff about predestination, and I think it was in first Peter or something like that, and it just was kind of interesting to me. But one of the main themes I did have my whole life was I was terrified of death.
Growing up, being 47, and I was just a child during the Cold War, in the early eighty s. I was just terrified of nuclear holocaust, all the movies. There was so much pop culture on this.
What happened to someone when you died, how you died? That was just something that's really serious, that caused me a lot of angst, anxiety, just as a boy. And I carried that for quite a while.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I would imagine that would be difficult. You said your mother was a widow and I'm sure even just personally experiencing the loss of a parent, that probably brought that issue a little bit forward for you and makes you think about it a little bit more seriously, especially when it's happened so close to you.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: There was always this kind of ghost in our home, Jana, where my older siblings dad, there was pictures, there were full size pictures on the wall like this one of the Eiffel Tower in our house. There was always these thoughts and these conversations and I had like this whole separate family that was his me. There were these talks of Jimmy was his name. Jimmy was watching down, he was looking down on know there's always this kind of ghost of person that was in our home and was talked about.
So there was a presence of death and a bit of taste of afterlife that did definitely flavor my childhood.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: So I wonder, when you experience something like that, does that make you want to know more about God or supernatural reality or the question of death?
[00:07:44] Speaker A: I had questions, but I didn't really know who to ask because there was no real experts in my life. But the truth be told, we were such a poor family. My mother widowed, she worked two jobs, she worked at different times. She worked at a furniture store, and then she waited tables a few nights a week. And then in that part of western Kentucky, it was what they called a dry county. And so they would set up these illegal bars where people would bring their own alcohol in, and my mother would be the bartender, so she would do that one or two nights a month to make extra money. So we were just so poor that it was like a survival mode. We moved 19 times before I graduated high school. There was this constant transition and kind of I think that really put me in the moment a lot. Just a very existential what do we do to get through the day. And then when you move that much, you moved in to school.
The girls liked me and the boys didn't, so there was a lot of fights, there was a lot of trouble. And so I think I just really was in survival mode most of my childhood. But let me just be honest that my mother was a sweet, loving, wonderful mother. She was my best friend. We'd sit and talk. We'd sit and drink coffee and talk for hours. I could talk to her about anything. She'd been through so much. She had a lot of wisdom to share. But she's just a really kind, wonderful woman. And despite all of these challenges, I had a great childhood. I mean, we had a lot of family, I had a lot of cousins around. There was always family things to do. And back in those days, they would just send you out in the summertime on your bicycle and you'd spend all day playing with your friends, you'd come home for dinner. So I had a wonderful childhood in that sense that it was very loving, was very supportive. There was lots of family friends and lots of fun, to be honest with you. But we didn't have much.
We got a cake for our birthday.
I never went on vacation as a know, one of the fun stories. It's funny now, but I think it was my 9th birthday, I got a Dairy Queen Eminem Blizzard. That was my gift, Jenna, and I was happy. So there was a contentment that was with that because you didn't have any other choice. You just learned to be content in those situations, right?
[00:09:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I can imagine with goodness, eleven children and just being in survival mode, but how in a way, although there was no doubt, incredible struggle, it gave you a heart of gratitude for something so simple as a blizzard for your birthday.
We have a lot to learn from that, I think, in terms of contentment. But it sounds like you were blessed in many ways, even with a simple upbringing. But as you're moving on, you have ten siblings. Was faith among that culture at all? I mean, did your brothers or sisters believe? Did you start questioning it as you got older? How did that work its way out?
[00:10:32] Speaker A: I had a sister who got involved in a church for a while, but that was because there were teenage boys there.
But then sometimes God uses those things. My brother, one of my older brothers, he wind up falling in love with a woman who was very involved in a great family and a great church. And so he began going to church regularly with her, and then mom started going with him, and then occasionally I would go with her. So we started hanging out with that family from time to time through my brother and I just got to see a little bit different way of life. There was his in laws who both passed away, were just wonderful people, wonderful Christian people, and it made me really go, wow, I missed a lot.
Dorothy and Graham were just incredible people and had raised wonderful kids and grandkids, and they all lived close to each other. They were just a really strong Christian family. So I did see the effects of Christianity as a young man, teenage boy, and I thought, okay, there's something different here with this family. And it really did have to do with Jesus. It took me years later to understand why that.
[00:11:35] Speaker C: You. Well, I'm glad that you got a good embodied example of what a Christian family looks like, even though it may not have been the fullness of that in your own family, but at least you had some kind of positive example.
So as you're getting older, are you pushing back against faith or Christianity? Are you kind of like that's for them? It's not for me. Or what started happening in your life.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: I started dating a girl who's dead, and they were very charismatic. So I remember going to this church and this guy's having some charismatic faith practices that would just kind of freak me out. But I like this girl, and her family always was there, and her dad would occasionally preach.
I was around a different kind of Christianity. It made me think, okay, what's going on here? I don't really understand all this. I did begin to read the Bible. I remember reading in John, and I just thought that was really interesting. And then first John about love.
I had a couple of touches with the Bible. I don't know if I would say God was probably pulling me in at that time, but there was a resistance because I was a hellraiser. Like, I was a kid who got in fights at school.
I was drinking at a young age.
I stole my sister's car. I made keys to my mom's car when I was 15 and then drive it around when she was out bartending at night. I did all those kind of things growing up, and so there was a part of me that was like, okay, if God is real, then I'm going to have to change the way I live, because obviously this is not the right kind of way to live.
[00:13:19] Speaker C: So, yeah, it wasn't something you were really eagerly looking for as a teenage boy. I'm sure the last thing you wanted was some kind of cosmic authority in your life telling you what to do.
So it was just easier and I presume, more fun for you to live on in the way that you wanted to live.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Well, sin has a particular appeal to it when you're lost. And obviously Satan's really good at temptation and keeping people in that way. I do think now, many years later, that he was very fearful of the fact of what would happen when a man like me came to Christ.
The times that I did touch into the Bible, there was always something that came out. There's always something that happened with girlfriends and not living the right way and accumulating a past that's not to be proud of, but I would have called myself at that point a non believer, an atheist, because I was like, I don't want God to exist, so I'm not necessarily a full blown anger towards God. I didn't really understand God. God was this very intangible thing. But I'd obviously seen the fruit of what a tangible faith looked like in the family that my brother was involved in. And those kind of things I did see. There is something that happens when you follow Christ and you live a good life. I mean, these people were good, wholesome people. But when you're a young kid doing what you want to do and chasing after the things of the world, that's kind of boring. It doesn't appeal to you, and you're like, oh, maybe that'd be something that happens when I get older.
[00:14:59] Speaker C: So at that time, when you were pushing away from God and the things of God, I guess you called yourself an atheist. You identified, I mean, you rejected that there was a God or that you just didn't want there to be a God.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: It's like there's all these big questions. I didn't have questions of really my purpose. I didn't have questions of really necessarily the afterlife. It was more of a morality.
I didn't want anybody to tell me what I could or couldn't do.
And that's just really where I was.
We can talk more about my military stuff, I guess, in a few minutes, but but, you know, when I went in the military, I had atheists of my dog tags.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: And how far was it from high school to your military service? How old were you when you entered into military service and decidedly put atheist on your dog tag?
[00:15:59] Speaker A: It was only a couple of years, so I graduated high school just not too long after I turned 17, and I joined the Marine Corps pretty soon after I turned 19. So I was just a big party guy, and so I didn't wind up lasting in school but a couple of semesters.
And so I was moving home, and my brother, who's the pastor, he loaned me his truck to move out of the dorm. And so I used I called my best friend up. He come to the dorm to help me move. And on the way back to move home, we stopped to buy some drugs, and we got busted. I'd already talked to her recruited once, but it didn't really go anywhere. I thought, there's no way I'd go in the know with all this authority issues I have and no control or but so I was kind of forced. So I remember walking into this foyer, and to my left was the Navy recruiter, and to the right was the Marine Corps recruiter. So I walked in the Navy office, and there was nobody in there. And then the Marine recruiter said, hey, why don't you come in here? So I was like, okay. And I just kind of walked over there and nosyed over there, and we got to talking, and he said, Bob, you taking the Asfab? And I said, no, sir, I skipped school that day, and so I had to take the test, and I wound up taking the test, and it's a little bit of maybe a day or two. So he called me back and he said, hey, you can do anything you want. You scored really good on the test. I said okay. Great. So I was like, what's your three toughest jobs? Public affairs and so what's that? And he said, he's like, you're a journalist? He's like, you ever seen a full metal jacket? He said you'll be Joker.
You go and you write stories, and you tell the Marine Corps story to the community. And he's like, and then when reporters want to talk to Marines, you usually help them out and help them get their story. Said, okay, sign me up for that.
That's how I got out of drug charges, and that's why I joined the Marine Corps, which was a dramatic shift in life for me and really helped change the trajectory of my life. I'm really thankful for the became that's how I joined the military. And then I wound up putting atheist on my dog.
Did I did carry that title into the Marine Corps. And then when I was in boot camp at Paris Island, the only time the drill instructors wouldn't mess with you is if you went to church or chapel, so they'd leave you alone. So I actually started going to church. Started going to chapel just to get.
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Left alone by your superiors?
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Yes, just to sit there and doze off or have nobody just sit in the air conditioning. Because on Sunday after on Sunday it was a light day, but at noon, before noon, you go to chapel and then you go to chow, and you had a couple of hours of free time. And free time is usually like you work out on your own or you polish your boots or you write letters to mom and dad or you get ready for the inspection that's coming up the next day or whatever, those kind of things. But for that little bit of time, that hour, hour and a half, you didn't have a drill instructor barking at you, which is a nice reprieve, but I did start carrying a Bible in the boot camp, and I read it from time to time, and I carried it in my pocket.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: As an atheist?
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: Why did you start reading a Bible and carrying one with you? Does it haunt back to those early days of worrying or wondering about death?
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Well, that's a great question. I see why you have such a great show. It gave me something to do a lot of times. I mean, there was a lot of hurry up and wait where you would move somewhere as a unit, and you would sit down for an hour waiting for somebody to come, supplies to arrive, whatever the training to begin. And so you'd get there early and you'd just sit there or you'd stand there. And so if you had a Bible, you could pull it out and read it, but you couldn't talk to anybody. It was boring. And so the Bible gave me something to do and something to read. And I remember it sounds silly, but I remember just looking at the clouds a lot and just thinking, I wonder if there is a God and if he's happy that I'm reading this Bible.
And that somewhat gave me a bit of comfort just to escape from the hell of boot camp. It just gave me a way to mentally get away from that place and think about something else.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: When you were reading the Bible, were you reading it as something this might have actually happened in history, that Jesus was a real person? Did you look at it know the Bible is myth and fairy tale. It's unbelievable.
What was your perspective in reading the.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Bible at that point? The veracity of the New Testament was something that I couldn't grasp how true the Bible was. Jesus was a real person.
But there was these fantastical stories in the prophets and in Revelation and there was this wisdom in ecclesiastes, and then there was the stories about Jesus. Didn't really get it, but it was just something that I think it was just something to do. And it entertained me, gives my mind some kind of exercise to do. But if we fast forward a few years, I got out of the Marine Corps and I moved back home, and I was going to use my GI bill and go to college. At that point, you got to realize my time in the Marine Corps was really exciting. I got to do a lot of traveling. First time I wore a suit or a tie. First time I flew on an airplane because as a poor Southern guy, we just did and have this wasn't a part of my life.
I got to live a pretty exciting life as a journalist, especially as a single, no kids. So I got to write incredible, fun stories.
But if we fast forward a few years, I got out of the Marine Corps, I moved home, went to college, and I joined the Army National Guard on September 7 because they had 100% tuition reimbursement. I joined on September 7 and then September 11 happened.
And then I got called up and we got deployed. And it was on that deployment where I gave my life to Christ. So this is where the ecclesiastes comes into play because a man gave me a copy of the Bible and said, Here, keep this with you. And I'd heard the stories about George Washington and the superstition of stopping a bullet and all this kind of stuff. We were listening. We were literally just going to Germany to relieve the army so the army could go to Afghanistan and relieve the we were it wasn't a difficult deployment in that regard, but nonetheless gave me a copy of the Bible, and I did carry it with me.
And then on the day we deployed, one of my soldier was he had been married for two years and had two year old kid, and his wife said that she was leaving him.
So he's my soldier, and he was broken. I mean, this guy was distraught, just crying, balling like a baby. His whole life is over. But he was getting deployed, so he couldn't do anything about it. He had to leave or go. A wallol. That was his only two choice.
His only two choices. So one of the first sergeants said, well, take him to see a chaplain.
I hadn't been in a church. I couldn't tell you how many years now. At this point. I'm 24. I don't think I've been in church since probably I was 1718. I might have visited a church when I went home to see mom. I don't remember any particular time.
And so I was, like, walking the chaplain. I remember thinking, oh, if God's real, I'm going to catch on fire as soon as I cross over the threshold of this place for all the hellraising and bar fights and all the things I had done that I'm not proud of when I was in the Marine Corps and so forth. But chaplain talked to the guy, encouraged the guy, whatever. I don't know what he said to him. That was one example where I was like, okay, this guy's broken, and I have no idea how to fix this kid because he's only, like, maybe 19 or 20.
But he's my responsibility. I'm his sergeant. I'm in charge.
And then I had another guy, giant of a man, big six eight, tough guy.
He lost his cool in the middle of a patrol and just threw his weapon down and cried like a baby because he was, like, missing home, and he just had a nervous breakdown. I had no idea how to fix this guy either. He was very angry.
I was like, what is going on with these people?
And then not too much longer after that, I had another soldier whose son had passed away. He had three boys, and his oldest son died. He was only, like, 13 or 14.
So we got the Red Cross message, and I had to go get the soldier, bring him to the captain's office. And me and the captain had to tell him that your son has passed away and that you need to go home and bury him. And then you need to come back on mission in 30 days, because we need you here. And you got orders. And so it was those examples where I actually pulled that Bible out. Janet and I started reading Ecclesiastes because that's what I knew. And at this point in my life, I realized, hellraising, drinking, fighting, I mean, I was not a man who would want to go to the Bible for anything. But I opened up ecclesiastes, and there it is. Hey, everything you've done is in vain. All those women you chase, that's not worth anything. The money that you've had is not worth anything.
There's nothing new under the sun. And so it was like, Whoa, I've done the same thing other people have done, and there's nothing new about that, but it's all fruitless. It's all vanity. And then I got over to the New Testament, and then that's where I experienced Christ for the first time in a real way, was reading him interacting with these people from all different strokes of life, from smearing woman, the rich young ruler, to calling Peter and Andrew. And these guys, he knew what was in their heart. I saw you under the and just all these things, and I was like, okay, something about Jesus understands the heart of so that drew me to him, because the problems I was facing with my soldiers was how to help what was broken on the inside of them. And I didn't know how to fix that. And that affected how they were able to perform on mission and what kind of soldiers they were and what kind of people they were and if they stayed out of trouble or not. So I was like, how do I help fix these guys on the inside? I didn't know. So that's when I began to read and got over to some really interesting verses, because I'd been a journalist and been a writer, so I was pretty comfortable with the English language. I got over to some verses like John 14 six. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. And I remember thinking, that is the most exclusive sentence I've ever heard in my life. You have these definitive articles. There is no either this is true or it's not true.
This is a really strong thing.
Okay? This guy lived in early days in Jerusalem and walked around, okay, was he real? Was he wrapped? I didn't think about that. I was just, you know now I would understand. That was a truth encounter, right? I was having a truth encounter. God had began to draw me in through some of these scriptures. And I remember reading, well, Jesus asking his disciples, who do you say that I am? Peter said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. Okay, that doesn't get any more exclusive. You are, which is like a present, the Christ, the son of the living God. Okay?
So these verses were really stuck in my head and just caused me a lot of thought.
Those were the initial parts of making me think more about the Lord. And, okay, maybe there's. Something to this.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: I'd like to pause for a moment and ask you a question.
Do you have big questions about God, the Bible, or our world? Today, c. S. Lewis used both reason and imagination to address some of the most important questions of his day. In his legacy, the C. S. Lewis Institute has developed a series of articles called Challenging Questions that tackle important topics about faith in a winsome and thoughtful, yet concise way. While the answers may not be exhaustive, they address the core of the issue and are easy to share with others. Each month, a new question is addressed by a key scholar, faith, or thought leader. Our hope is that these questions and responses offer food for thought and encourage.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: You to go deeper in your own journey.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: You can find these articles at our award winning C. S. Lewis Institute website. That's www.cslewissinstitute.org. Forward slash publications. Now back to our story.
[00:29:00] Speaker C: As you were reading all of this.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Whether it's the Old Testament or the.
[00:29:04] Speaker C: New Testament, about the person of Christ and who he was and how he engaged with people, were you talking with other people about what you were reading? Was there a chaplain around that you were having conversations with, or was this something you were processing on your own thinking? I mean, I wonder what you were thinking. Is this guy real? Is this for real?
Is there something to this that I need to be considering more deeply, even?
[00:29:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't remember at this point having anybody to talk to. I mean, I had been me and my buddy Joe, we were the company and battalion. Hellraisers, we were the guys you want to go party with. We were the guys that were cool and fun and all that stuff. So none of the good guys really wanted to hang out with us.
There were a few Christians in our unit. One of them was our sergeant major. So, like, the top enlisted guy, this guy was as straight laced as they come. He didn't cuss. You barely saw him lose his temper. And for a sergeant major in the army, you're just like this guy's. I had expectations of what those would look like. I was looking at it through a Marine Corps lens, so it was a little bit different perspective. But there were a couple of guys that I knew were Christians, and they lived differently. But no, I didn't talk to them at that point. They didn't want to talk to me. But one of the things that did happen is I went to quit smoking. I smoked cigarettes like crazy, and one of my soldiers, his name is Aaron I'm leaving off last names, but Aaron gave me a what would Jesus do bracelet because I told him he was one of my soldiers. And I said I wanted to quit smoking. He said, well, he'd seen me read my Bible. He and a guy named Chris had been they saw me read my Bible, and they were both Christian guys. And so this guy gave me a what would Jesus do? Bracelet. He's like, anytime you want to smoke, just think, what would you know? So I put it on because he had honored me with that and he had given that to me and he was rooting for me. And I was like, okay, I'm going to wear it because he gave it to me. I'm not going to be a jerk about it or whatever. I'm just going to just honor his little gift here.
These were things so God was working on me going, okay, these were convictions. Now that I understand what was happening, these were convictions that began to happen. And God put these little pieces in place to start making me think about him. And I live. None of these guys actually ever witnessed to me directly. None of them actually shared the gospel with me, came to me with scripture.
They lived differently, but they had never actually preached or prayed for me or even explained Scripture to me or even witnessed to me. There weren't gospel conversations, but there was obviously a wholesome witness that they presented.
[00:31:47] Speaker C: And was that attractive to you in some way or was that more repulsive at that time?
[00:31:53] Speaker A: It was honorable to me, okay? Because I had been such a bad person. I mean, I stole, I was a womanizer. I would drink and try to fight my best friends and then try to go out with them the next night and they wouldn't want to hang out with me. I mean, I wasn't proud of who I was and I wasn't raised with my dad. Like I said, my mom was widowed and so she married a different man and had me. And he was an alcoholic. He was very angry and I only saw him a few times a year. But one of the worst compliments or one of the worst statements that could ever be said to me was, you're just like your father.
And so it was in those moments where I was like, I'm becoming my dad. And what's funny, Janet, is I look exactly like my dad, minus blue eyes, like we are twins.
But anyway, there was a wholesomeness to that and it was honorable to me that they wanted to live differently and wholesomely. And I remember thinking back to the Glen and Dorothy's of the world had know, just wonderful family context. And you think of when you watch TV and see all these wholesome families. That was not what I grew up in.
I grew up in a home where I remember waking up on Christmas morning, I had one present under the tree and there was a bunch of people passed out. I mean, there was like a dozen people passed out in the house. I didn't know who they were. Like twelve or 13 years old. I mean, that's the kind of home I grew up in.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Oh my. Yes.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: But there was something about these guys that lived differently and that was attractive to me. It's like, okay, there's a different way to live that doesn't come with all this trouble and drama. And that was a little bit attractive to me.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: And you knew they were Christians, but they just lived their life in front of you. They didn't try to push it upon you?
[00:33:39] Speaker A: Never.
They were honestly quiet Christians.
I don't remember seeing anybody, really witnessed anybody.
So that was kind of fascinating. Now that you think back on it, how God wind up bringing me into his family, right?
[00:33:53] Speaker C: So then what happened? You were observing, you were reading.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I got into a huge cousin fight with our company sergeant. So one of the top guys.
And he wasn't a nice guy. I'm not going to give him any credit. But I had a difference of opinion about things because I had come from the Marine Corps. So my expectations of professionalism and service and devotion and all that was very different. And so there was a lot of kind of deeper philosophical issues. And I just remember getting into a huge fight with him and we're just yelling. Cussing so angry at him. He was two ranks ahead of me. So he probably could have got me on some kind of subordination charge or whatever and it didn't resolve. But I remember walking back to my barracks and some of those songs from the chapel came back and so I just started having a little talk with Jesus and tell him about my troubles because that's what the song said, right?
And these old Southern gospel hymns and just a few of them. I didn't know hardly any of them, but I just remember saying, God, if you're real, I am 6000 miles away from home. Excuse my French, my life sucks, I'm a bad guy. I am not happy with where I'm at in life. I am a paycheck to paycheck drunk, I'm fighting my best friends.
I am just a mess. And I was like, God, if you're real, I need you and I need you now. This is it. I need you to show up if you're real.
And then the sergeant major came out of the corner. You got to realize I only went to the company office a handful of times in a year.
And sergeant majors, here I am. So I'm in an army at this point. I'm sergeant in army. Even though I earned my sergeant structure in the you know, so I maintain my so here I'm supposed to be this tough sergeant guy, right? And I'm crying. I'm just like snotty messy know, walking down the street in uniform. The sergeant major comes out and he's like, what's going on with you, Wilkie? And I was like, I knew he's a know. Everybody did, because they always made fun of him because he go drink, he wouldn't do all this stuff. But anyway, I was like, I'm just having a talk with Jesus, and I'm telling him about my troubles. I have no idea what he said to me. It was probably 30 seconds, but he encouraged me, right? It's probably what we'd say about it now, but I can't recall what he said. Then a few minutes later, one of the other Christian guys was there, guy named Charlie. And he saw me. He's like you. Okay? And I was like, no. He said some words to me, and I don't know what he said either, Jana. And then went back to my dorm room, my barracks room, and I was crying, and I was just upset. And then I get a knock on the door.
So I go to the door, and it's Russ. And I'm like, what are you doing here? Like, Russ never comes to my room, right? I mean, Russ was the exact opposite of what I was. And Russ said to me, God told me to come talk to you.
[00:36:58] Speaker C: And he hadn't talked to the sergeant major or the other friend.
Oh, wow.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: So I have no idea how long Russ stayed. He may have stayed two minutes. He may have stayed 20 minutes. Literally don't remember. Don't remember what he said. Had no idea. The only thing that stuck out was, God told me to come talk to you, so I'm here. So he'd heard the voice of God, and he obeyed God.
He's talking to me, and I'm just sitting there thinking, Whoa, wait a second. And then Russ leaves, and as soon as he leaves, I was, wait, you.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: Had just prayed, and Russ is knocking on your door? That's crazy.
But I guess it's not crazy if God is real, right?
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Right. When he left, I said, Wait a is wait, god just and people have taken issue with this theology over time, and they can I don't care. This is my experience with the Lord.
I said, wait a second. The God of the universe just heard my prayers, stopped what he was doing. That's where people have a problem and showed me he was real. He didn't send the flash of lightning. There was no unicorns running through the heavens. There was nothing. Crazy, right? It was literally three people who I knew were Christians and respected as Christians that he had put in my path within moments, minutes after I had prayed, god, if you're real, I need you, and I need you now. And God showed up in his people, and that was all the proof I needed. The verses of Scripture, all that stuff, all that would come later, right?
Understanding the Bible. But at that point, I knew God was real. And if God was real, those things I'd been reading in scripture had to be true. And if that was true, then obviously I was feeling convicted as a sinner. And so my knees hit the floor, and I said, God, I'm so sorry. I've done a horrible job at living, and so I'm done I can't do this my way. You're obviously real. You obviously care about me. Was this love that he gave me, right? It was this overwhelming love of God that he would stop and notice me, of all people.
Paul talks about being a chief sinner, and I would take him up on that when I get to I just I was like, okay, his love, wow. He stopped and noticed me and that broke me, Janet. That just broke me. And I said, God, I'm done. I can't live this life like this anymore. However you want me to live, I'll do it.
And then that was it.
And then literally my next question was what does it mean to be a Christian?
[00:39:36] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Listen, I had nobody disciple me. It was me and the word and the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God took the word of God and showed me the truth of God and revealed to me the Son of God and changed my life. And my next question was, what do I need to do to be a Christian? And John, God led me to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbors, yourself. And that has been the very basis of my faith ever since because I was like, oh, God, it's easy to love you. You have done so much for me. You've forgiven me so much. And I do not deserve his grace, mercy, forgiveness, whatsoever. Loving people, on the other hand, is going to take a whole lot more work.
I'm still working on that. That's the sanctification process.
[00:40:20] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Living is messy, right? People are messy. We all are.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:27] Speaker C: Sometimes unlovable. Seemingly unlovable. Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Well, to bring it full story, there was a little chapel that some of these guys I talked about, charlie and Russ and a guy named Mike and somebody's and Sergeant Major, I mean, they literally went down to this one room, turned a Foot Locker on its side. It wasn't much bigger than one car garage. And the sergeant major played the guitar and somebody would sing and then somebody would preach.
And so I began to go to this little chapel, and it was on Father's Day of 2002.
Whether that have been Father's Day is in June 1 of the guys that I remember who it was got up and shared about God being our father.
And I realized wait. Okay. God is my heavenly father. He is my father. He's the father I've never had. He is there with me. He is walking with me. He is talking with me, and he's real. And this means that all of this expectation and disappointment I'd had towards my earthly father didn't really matter anymore. And I remember having a conversation with a guy about this in the laundry mat as sitting on the washer and we're talking about our deadbeat dads and all this kind of stuff. And I remember being impressed by the spirit you need to forgive your father. So I literally went and picked up the phone and within a few moments and called my dad after that conversation said, dad, I just want to tell you I forgive you.
I forgive you for all the things you did do that were awful and all the things you didn't do. But I'm a Christian now and I remember telling him, janet, God is my dad and I will love you as my earthly father, but God is my dad and he provides me all that I need as a father. And I don't know how that set with my dad at that point, I was still thousands of miles away from home. But that was a turning point in our relationship that now, looking back, I was able to just love this man who had so little impact, but so great impact at the same time on my life, that I was able to love one of the most unlovable people, that I still have siblings that still can't forgive him and love him. And that made all the difference in the world. When I came back, we became very good friends and I had to spend a lot of time with my dad before he passed many years ago.
[00:42:48] Speaker C: Wow, what a beautiful redemption story that is. Truly grateful for that.
Just got chills, actually.
The thought of being able to love someone who has intentionally or unintentionally harmed, you know, in so many ways, but yet you can love with the love of God, the love of Christ, through the love of Christ, the one who is mean, because that's what Christ did for I mean, it's never really easy, is it, to do that? But yet you were obviously compelled by the spirit of God to do that and what a relief for you and I'm sure for him as well. The grace that you were able to extend in that moment I'm sure had a tremendous impact on him as well as you.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: I would like to think so. It was a great gift that I had with my dad, that friendship that we could have. But it was only through the power of God to have the love of God in me.
But it was like, okay, if God can forgive me of all the things that I've done against him and he's holy and I'm not, I can truly forgive somebody. But it was also this provision of God, like the provision of God was, okay, I provide all that you need emotionally, obviously, spiritually, even physical strength at times to get through difficult long days and things like that. You feel God just give you energy to get through these kind of situations.
[00:44:36] Speaker C: Yeah, what a relief it is sometimes when we put so much pressure on other people to be a certain way for us and towards us.
Certainly we all desire a healthy relationship with parents and good and all that.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: But the reality is we live in.
[00:44:58] Speaker C: A broken world with broken people and no human will ever fulfill us in the way or love us in the way that we desire other than a perfect God with a perfect love who's willing to give when we just come to him. And I love that. You were obviously humble. I mean, you came to a place of humility when you came to ask God if you're real. You were humble enough to do that. And then how gracious of Him to so immediately provide for you, to show you in such tangible ways what a gift that must have been to you that it sounds like that there was really no doubt after that happened.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: There has not been any doubt in my mind. The existence, truth, the reality and even the person of God and the personality of God as my Father, as my Lord Jesus Christ. There's no doubt that has been in my life in those years. There's been doubts about where I've stood and doubts about where I'm living and doubts about obviously trying to figure out, living out and working out your own sanctification. There's doubts with that. But there's never been a doubt about the reality, truth, existence and awareness of God in my life in 20 something years.
[00:46:23] Speaker C: Again, that is a huge gift, I would imagine the difference between those years of living without God and then living with God in a much more contented, settled, loved place where I presume, there's no fear of death anymore.
Talk to me just a minute about how things have changed for you juxtaposed to your life before and after.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: Now, I don't want to put too academic on it because I'm not an academic guy. Public schoolboy from Kentucky with a basic education from college, but there's this idea of redemptive lift that happens when you give your life to Christ. I got off drugs, I got off alcohol, I quit smoking.
But then the Lord provided real friends. Like all my drinking buddies immediately went away. I mean, all of my party buddies immediately went away. They had nothing to do with me, so I was without friends. And then immediately he provided Mike and Adam and some of these other men and then we began to study the know. So he provided community immediately for me and deep friendships like a true source of coin and EA fellowship of bondedness with these men through the spirit of Christ that I didn't have within my own brothers, my own blood brothers. And then once I got back home and began to go to church, I began to see what a Godly father was, began to understand a lot more truth about God. Now, I had several years where I didn't know how to live out the Christian life. I'm literally growing up there was only a couple of family members who were married. I didn't know what any of this I didn't know what life looked like. I didn't know what life could look like.
So, I mean, a lot has changed in the simple fact of God. Show me there's a different way to live.
A lot has changed.
Some people take this the wrong way when I say it, but there's two sides of it. If, you know, Jesus says, forgiven little, loves little, and he who's been forgiven much loves much. I found that to be true with a lot of the really strong brothers I have been around in life who really made a mess out of their life when they get into a deep vine and Pruning vineyard, tendon it's cheap in a shepherd relationship, a very close father son relationship with God.
They're just on fire, and they love Him because they know where they've come from.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: I'd like to take a moment from our story and ask for your prayers. Prayer has been a vital part of the DNA of the CSOs Institute ministry since its inception in 1976. Time and again, as we've faced various challenges, god has led the men and women of the Institute to fall on our knees in prayer and to seek his path and power. We have seen God graciously respond many times. If you have a heart for prayer and for the CS Lewis Institute, would you join us? We'll send you prayer requests once every few weeks. If you're interested, go to our
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[00:49:59] Speaker C: God has brought beauty from ashes, it sounds like, and restored the years that the locusts have eaten all of those things in the last 20 years. You said since 2002 it would be.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: 2002, so now, yes, it'd be 21 years now of walking with the Lord, which is wild. I mean, I tell these stories to people, and it's like I'm talking about a different person.
When I came home, Jada, I mean, it was the music, how I dressed, how I talked, things I thought about my dreams. I mean, I had dreams about all kinds of dreams about God and just everything about I literally was a new creation. Like, literally a new creation. Same skin, same flesh, same background, but I'm literally like a brand new person, and people didn't recognize that.
[00:50:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sure. It's like, where did John go? Who is this guy?
[00:50:55] Speaker A: So now it's funny, 21 years later, when I tell these stories, I'm like, who is that guy?
You get to tell some of your story, and you get used to sharing some things. But we've skipped a lot, obviously. It's been 21 years, but people don't even recognize that guy.
[00:51:12] Speaker C: Wow. There's such beauty and power in that kind of transformation, though. John, that's so inspiring. Truly.
I think that you can reach so many people with your story because so many people are in that same place or trying to figure it out.
And I'm thinking about those, even who might be listening right now to your story, saying I'm that guy.
I'm that guy, or I'm that woman who is a hellraiser or just whatever and how I would like to find something different or something more or actually have a piece of that obvious love that you have and contentment in life and change.
I think if anything, you demonstrate that change is possible.
[00:52:07] Speaker A: All things are possible with God. I mean, if he can, he loved a sinner like me first and that's why I know what love is.
[00:52:13] Speaker C: Yeah. So if somebody's listening like that today, what would you say to someone like that? How could you encourage them to is it saying a prayer to God? Are you real? Is it connecting with Christians? I mean, reading the Bible I can think of you actually took time to try to figure something out, even though you were on your own for quite a while.
How can you guide someone towards Christ?
[00:52:42] Speaker A: I would challenge people to just pray that prayer of God, I need you. When you get to that low moment in life, god, I need you. And I have faith that he'll show up. I have faith that he will walk into your situation and help you understand where you are and what you need, and he'll show that he's real and he'll show that he loves you. I mean, I would love to see people have that experience with God where at first I had a truth encounter with the Word and then I had an experiential encounter with God in that way of providing people. I would also say you can't discount the Christians that you know are around you who are trying to live differently and we're all not going to be perfect in what we do. But sometimes just asking the question like, what happened to you?
I don't expect you to be perfect, but how did you come to know God? I mean, just asking that question because we do that all the time. How do I fix a shingle? How do I change a tie rod? I mean, we look up things on YouTube. We look up things all the time. We ask other questions all the time. So if you're struggling in your faith, if you're trying to figure out if God is real and what just one, ask Him and to ask other people, because God uses his people as broken and as messy as they are, he used people. He's still sovereign, he's still going to work it out. But literally, his people are a representation of Him, even in their mess and their struggle in life. But I mean, people of faith still have a lot that they can share and the spirit of God is in them. And so the spirit of God can speak through them to you and guide you to Scripture and give you wisdom in life that you just would never have expected.
[00:54:30] Speaker C: That's perfect. And then again, it seems like there were several touch points that God had Christians or believers in your life at different points. Even as a child, you saw that beautiful family as representative of something good. And then later those men in the army who were again, just touch points, maybe not pushy, they weren't pressing, but they were living in such a way that you knew that they were different.
What would you say to Christians in terms of how we can best engage with people who are some may be looking we don't know it, some may not be looking for God.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: We in this world. It has become so polarized and so vitriolic, I guess is the word. It's so politicized.
It's hard for some people to separate when they're looking at Christians, the politics from who they are as people.
To Christians, I would say just do the best you can when it comes to how you're living. I'm literally at the pool yesterday and I'm there by myself. The kids are off with the grandparents and stuff and my neighbors are out drinking. So I just get in the pool, it's hot. I get in the pool, I go over there and and sit, just sit down and talk to them. They're drinking, they're talking. And guys like, hey, would you like a beer? And it's like, no thanks.
Literally, I hang out with them for like an hour and a half and we talk about some pop culture, we talk about some music, some movies, some news that's happening.
But through the conversation I'll just kind of drop little things. Oh, you know what, I'm just kind of a straight lace guy. I don't drink and do those kind of things anymore.
But then through that friendship, evangelism, I mean, one of my mentors and friends, he wrote a great book about contagious faith.
There's different styles of evangelism, but with my neighbors, they obviously know something's different. And I'm hoping those conversations will come up. They see me obviously get ready for church and come home from church. They're not hearing me cussing they're not hearing me, not seeing me drinking and hanging out. But those little things that I saw were okay, there's something different about this guy. But I'm still relatable and I'm still fun and I'm still cool enough to hang out with that they don't really care if I'm not getting drunk with know. And sometimes Christians get here's, I guess. Here's the thrust of my answer, Gina. Christians get in their bubble so much, they don't know how to hang out with sinners anymore.
[00:57:11] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:57:12] Speaker A: And that is a sad thing because our Lord walked with people to the point where they thought he was one of them, even though he never partook in the same life that they did. And they accused him of all kinds of horrible stuff. I don't want. To be accused of false accusations or anything, but if people see me hanging out on my porch over here with these neighbors that drink a lot, I'm okay if they question where I'm at. Not because I like to hang out with them and drink, and they watch a lot of basketball and football, and I don't watch any sports, but they know, hey, we can talk about anything, and we can hang out and do I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to be angry towards you. But when the bottom falls out of their life, I expect that they're going to talk to me.
And I found that to be true over these 21 years of following Christ. That if I can just be a constant witness, that's not judgmental, that's not angry and not living like the world, that sooner or later when the bottom falls out, they're going to pick up the phone and call me.
[00:58:19] Speaker C: I think that's beautifully said. I think there's something very powerful about just being in relationship with someone.
As I've heard many say, just play the long game. I mean, be in relationship with genuine friendship. Not project related friendship, but genuine friendship so that, as you say, when opportunities do come and they're at a point of need or desire for something more, that they know who you are and they know what you have, what you hold, and that you have something different and you have something to offer.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: The Lord put a lot of people in my life really quickly, and I wouldn't be where I am today without those people who said, hey, you need to do this Bible study. Hey, you should be learning what it means to fast and pray and you need to really be sharing your faith. And I had other people say, you need to stop cussing when you're talking about Jesus because I didn't know that was really a taboo thing.
And then, hey, you really should start tithing. All these people that were God brought in my life just kind of helped put the structure of obedience in my life. Here are ways to obey God. When I was like, okay, God, how do I follow you? What do I do? He provided all that. That didn't all come overnight over a few years, but don't discount the community of God.
[00:59:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good word, I think too. What's interesting about your story is you kind of came to faith as a Lone Ranger, as it were. So I appreciate your emphasis on the fact that your growth, your becoming a Christian and knowing what that means, what it looks like, what it is to live as a follower of Christ all came in the context of community.
And that community provides such support, not only spiritually speaking and guidance, but also just in every other way. It's really beautiful the way that God has designed things that we are meant to be together and to belong together.
[01:00:31] Speaker B: And, like you say, be in a.
[01:00:34] Speaker C: Right place where it's not just about receiving, it's about serving and it's about giving and it's about growing, which obviously, you have done all of those things. So thank you for commending us there at the end. I think that's a word for probably a lot of people.
So. Thank you, John. What an extraordinary I love I never, ever tire of seeing God show up when people are calling out his name to see if he's real and then to hear and see the difference that he can make in someone's life. What a beautiful testimony that you've given us today. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us your story.
[01:01:16] Speaker A: Thank you very much for allowing me to share. I honestly can't take the credit for it. It's God's story and what he's done in my life, and he'll do it in anybody else's, too.
[01:01:23] Speaker C: Yes, well, thank you. Thank you for being such a strong man of thanks.
[01:01:28] Speaker A: Thanks.
[01:01:29] Speaker C: All right.
[01:01:30] Speaker A: Have a great day.
[01:01:31] Speaker C: Thank you.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Thanks for tuning into CyBe stories. To hear John Wilkie's story you can find out more about his recommended resources in the episode Notes. For questions and feedback about this episode, you can contact me directly through our email at
[email protected]. Also, if you're a skeptic or atheist who would like to connect with a former atheist with questions, please contact us and we'll get you connected. This podcast is produced through the C. S. Lewis Institute and our wonderful team producer Ashley Decker, audio engineer Mark Rosera and ministry assistant Lori Burluson. You can also see these podcasts in video form on our YouTube channel through the excellent work of our video editor, Kyle Polk. If you enjoyed it, I hope you'll.
[01:02:15] Speaker C: Follow rate review and share this podcast.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: With your friends and social network. In the meantime, I'll be looking forward.
[01:02:22] Speaker C: To seeing you next time where we'll.
[01:02:23] Speaker B: See how another skeptic flips the record of their life.
