[00:00:02] Speaker A: And I think through the struggles that God has led me, Jana, that there's no way I'm standing before Jesus and trying to justify myself by the works that I've done. I know they're not good. I know what my works add up to, but that it's only by the mercy of Jesus and his righteousness that I'm able to stand. And maybe I wouldn't even be standing.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Hello and thanks for joining in. I'm Jana Harmon and you're listening to ex skeptic where we hear unlikely stories of belief. Each podcast we listen to someone who is once been an atheist or skeptic, but he became a christian against all odds. You can find more of our stories on our x skeptic
[email protected]. dot. That's ex t I c.org dot. You can also watch these amazing stories on our YouTube channel. We love hearing your thoughts and comments on our stories through our Facebook page or YouTube channel. Or you can email us
[email protected] dot.
How do you know that God is real? Thats a question that haunts many. God is a person. And a person is not typically known through a series of evidence or proven through a set of arguments. Rather, someone is typically known through a personal encountering. Sometimes knowing a person is felt as an intuition, a tacit understanding that resides deep beneath a rational process of the intellect.
Coming to know involves an ongoing relationship of coming to see, to learn, to listen, to love, and to trust.
Coming to know God as a person is a bit like knowing others that we know through relationship. There must be an openness, a willingness to engage, to perceive, to open yourself to a deep sense of the other. You might not really be sure why you know what you know to be true and real. You just do. God is a person known like that. He is personal and he reveals himself to those who are looking.
The Bible says if you seek God with all of your heart that you'll find him. You will be found by him, you will know, and you will be deeply known.
In our story today, Daniel Ray didn't have a religious upbringing, but somehow he knew God was real, but he kept him at a distance. Daniel wasn't actively searching for God. He was living in his own way, on his own terms. But eventually he was found by God.
Since that time, he's learned what it means to know God, to walk in his reality, the one he once ignored. And now he helps others find the truest, deepest source of being loved and being known. I hope you'll come along not only to listen to his story, but also to hear his wise and practical advice to both curious skeptics on finding God and to christians on engaging with those who don't believe in our story today. Daniel Ray didn't have a religious upbringing, but somehow he knew that God was real. Although he kept him at a distance, Daniel wasn't actively searching for God. He was living in his own way, on his own terms. But eventually he was found by Goddesse. Since that time, he's learned what it means to know God, to walk with God, the one he once ignored. Now he helps others find the truest, deepest source of being known and loved. I hope you'll come along not only to listen to his story, but also to hear his wise and practical advice to curious skeptics on finding God and to christians on engaging with those who don't believe.
Welcome to ex skeptic Daniel. It's great to have you with me today.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Thank you, Jana. It's great to be here.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Wonderful.
As we're getting started, I would love for our audience to get a sense of who you are. Could you introduce us to yourself? Maybe some of your passions, what you're involved in, your education, the work that you're doing.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: My name is Daniel Ray. I am a staff apologist with Watchman Fellowship in Arlington, Texas. It's an interfaith evangelism ministry.
We equip the church to understand non christian ideas and worldviews and other religions, and then we try to go out and engage with those people. And the Watchmen has been around for about 30 years. I produce two podcasts for watchmen apologetics profile and good heavens. Good heavens is a science and faith has a science and faith emphasis. And I have a master's degree from Houston Christian University, which was Houston Baptist University. I studied under Michael Ward and did my thesis on CS Lewis and his relevance, his the relevance of CS Lewis imagination for our time. And I did my master's thesis on that. And I've been informally involved in the field of apologetics for about the last ten to 15 years and really enjoying it. And thank you for having me on. No, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: That's terrific. And of course, I love that you have such a focused interest in CS Lewis and the work of CS Lewis, particularly having been mentored by Michael Ward, one of the foremost experts and scholars in CS Lewis in the world.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't really realize at the time how fortunate I was, but Michael was gracious and compassionate let's start at.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: The beginning of your story. Can you paint a picture for us, Daniel, of your life as a child, how you grew up, your family, your culture, and whether or not God or religion played any part of that?
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
I was born on the east coast, and dad was a traveling salesman and hopped around a lot, so I was always moving. And my first cognitive memories were of our home in Ohio.
And then we moved to California when I was five and lived in several different places there.
There was no religion in our household, dad, we certainly never darkened the door of a church. We were not antagonistically atheistic in our sense, but a comfortable secular family. But dad, as an adult now, mom tells me stories. Dad was always trying to find one, chasing one scheme or another.
I kind of liken my father to the character of Willie Lohman in death of a salesman. In some respects, he was just like that.
But as a child, it was a comfortable life. I felt like I had a pretty decent childhood.
But when I was in kindergarten, we moved next door to the libertor family in Palo Alto, California, and I became best friends with the 9th child of that family. They were a large italian family, and that friendship with their youngest solidified for me. Or I can see now God's handiwork in providentially guiding us next door to the libertaries because they would play a huge factor several years later when my dad passed away. And so. But there was no religious upbringing in my home. And, you know, I loved Charlie Brown and cartoons and Christmas and, you know, we had birthdays and, you know, went to school and all the typical childhood things. And I was about six or seven, and I was watching Charlie Brown Christmas on our black and white tv in our family room. And I remember distinctively, you know, I could separate the difference between cartoon and reality. But then I knew at some point when I heard Linus talking about reading from Luke, I knew that was true. Now, I had no prior reason to believe that what Linus was saying was actually true, but I knew at that moment, and I can see at that moment, and I don't know why that moment sticks out in my mind as it does, but I think that was a pivotal moment in my childhood where I think God, I cognitively remember God starting to work in my life. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, it was just, I just knew as a child, six or seven, I just knew that what he was saying was true. And so I think that was initially where I saw God begin to work. But we never went to church. I was never catechized or formally introduced to God or religion. We had a Bible in our house and I remember as a kid thinking that you would burn your hands if you touched the Bible, where I got that from, but that was a belief. The Bible went from house to house with us and it was always on the shelf, but we never read it. I never read it and I was afraid to touch it. So I had the Charlie Brown Linus reading from Luke in my head as true. But then I was like, well, if I touch the Bible, I will burn my hand. So I kind of lived in that, but I never really. Beyond that, I never really thought much about God as a child.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Right. It's funny, our memories as children and those pivotal moments, kind of emotional moments that kind of stick in our mind for some reason or another. It is fascinating, the story of Linus and peanuts. That used to be significant for those who are a little bit older, when television didn't give us that many choices, obviously you can look back and see even now that was a seed planted in your heart or in your mind at some point to consider the possibility of God. So walk us on from there. If God was not a part of your life, I mean, did you ever begin to think about God more intentionally, either to move towards or to reject at some point?
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Well, if we go. I was nine. I remember when we moved to Sunnyvale from Palo Alto and I was nine or ten.
My dad, our dad asked us, I have three younger brothers, asked us to write down what Christmas meant to us. And I saved the paper, it's in my scrapbook.
And I spelled Jesus wrong, but I said that Christmas is all about the birth of Jesus Christ.
Where did that come from?
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: I don't know. I mean, there was another one. I was like, oh, that's wild. And, you know, we'd have a little manger scene on the mantle at Christmas and. But, but, you know, I would say that our family had all the benefits of traditional Christianity without Christ. You know, there was. I mean, my childhood was very comfortable up until about teen years when, for whatever reason, my father turned on me. I mean, more. More like, not so much physical abuse, but. But verbal abuse. Never pleased with me, never.
I could never do anything to satisfy him. And then he largely started to become absent from our family. And there were days where he wouldn't come home. And so, you know, you start to wonder, well, what did I do? You know, I was. From the time I was about nine until I was freshman year in high school, things got so bad between my father and I, and this is an incident, one of my brothers told me that I don't even have a cognitive memory of.
A little bit, maybe, but my dad got so angry with me about something and he picked me up and threw me through the door to our garage and the door fell off the hinges and landed on top of me. I can sort of remember that, but I was 14 or 13 and a freshman in high school, and I just.
It was awful. And I didn't want to have anything more to do with my father or that house or my family, of course.
So unbeknownst to me, there had been a plan after that incident, or sometime before that incident, enter the libertors again. And my mom contacted the family and we lived in Sunnyvale, they lived in Palo Alto, which is about a half hour drive. And they reached this agreement. They said, well, why don't we have Dan live with us for the rest of high school and he can go to high school in Palo Alto, get away from dad and finish school. Because I was getting D's and f's at the high school where I was at, and I hated my home life. So my mom presented me with the offer and misses libertor presented me with the offer and I jumped at the chance just to. Just to get away. And so the libertors took me in as a foster care kiddo, and I remember waking up. So I would go to the liberator's during the week to go to school in Palo Alto High school and then have to go home on the weekends. But there would be times where I didn't want to go home on the weekends because I just didn't want to go home, you know, so. But Barb and Jack were Catholic. Barb would start talking to me about Jesus. She never forced him on me, but I at least saw here, well, if this is how people that believe in God live, they showed me genuine love that I, you know, my mom showed me love and she. She does as best she could. My dad didn't.
I mean, as a child, he did. But then something. There was just dad before I was 13 and dad after I was 13. Two different people. And so the liberators, I would say, gave me a foundation for what genuine, what a good family looks like, what christian love looks like. I mean, who takes in people and as one of their own, just off, you know, like a teenager, in fact, a 14 year old troubled teenager. So I wasn't I, but I started to love school at that point because I didn't have to worry about home life. I had a place to study, I had my own little room, and I loved school.
All of a sudden, I got a's and b's for the rest of my high school career.
So that, that pretty much covers it in a nutshell. About. But I didn't become a Christian in the libertor household. I graduated high school from there. But Barb laid the groundwork that this is what God's love looks like. So I was always going over to their house. I was always going on vacation with them. So that really, I would say, laid the foundation, but basically saved my life because at that time, shortly after what my dad did, he took his own life.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sorry.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: And it was, it was miserable. I mean, so the liberators literally saved my life. Though I was never a Christian in any of that, necessarily. I would never in that time period have classified myself as an atheist. So I'd never had my fist out at God in that capacity. But I certainly was not a Christian. So maybe I was a. A tepid deist or something. I don't know what you would classify me as, but.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: So through that experience with your father, you didn't blame God or push God away because of your earthly father? Essentially, no.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: I never made the association, I think, thankfully, because I saw what a good dad looked like in mystery liberator. I mean, he wasn't perfect.
An italian family with nine children. There's going to be some arguing, sure, but. But they could always resolve things and they always loved each other and it was always genuine and I was always made a part of that, but I never. I never made that connection to, like, I was never fist shaking at God. Why did you do this to me? I didn't know enough about God to blame him. And I think, naively, maybe I would think that God would have been above all that anyway, you know, that why would I blame God for something my dad did? I don't know. I just never crossed my mind as a teenager, I didn't even go to my dad's funeral, you know, I didn't really even miss him a whole lot either, you know, as a teenager, so.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Well, that's understandable, certainly. So you were given this extraordinary gift of actually living in and being a part of a genuinely loving family. You said you weren't there on weekends, so I take it that you didn't attend any kind of church service or mass or anything like that?
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Never. They never asked me to go. I did occasionally, I think, when I was a kid, not as I was living there as a foster care, but as a child, they did occasionally they did once or twice, I can remember, take me to the catholic church that was there in Palo Alto, but I never, ever recall them ever making that an issue with me. I think Barb knew better that she's trying to force a teenager to go to church.
She knew better. I was still not ready.
But her kind of an unconditional acceptance, I mean, she laid the groundwork. She let me do whatever I want. She did not let me do whatever I wanted.
But within those bounds, she let me, you know, have a little freedom. It wasn't like a, okay, you're in this house and these are the rules. She didn't have some rules, but I didn't feel like she was trying to box me in. She really genuinely loved me, I think.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: Okay, wow, you know, that really is a gift to have been taken out of one home, you know, your home, actually, and be given such a loving environment.
So you lived there through high school, and then what were your next steps?
[00:17:19] Speaker A: So my best friend in high school and I had hatched a plan. We planned to move to Los Angeles and start a band, and we tried. And so she and I moved to LA, like a minute and a second after I graduated, I went and got a job at a grocery store in Los Angeles and went and found an apartment. And so I picked up the guitar and started playing guitar. And I wanted to be a. I wanted to be a rock star. So I was living in Los Angeles, Sunset Strip area, Hollywood during the time of the big metal bands of the early nineties. And I was emulating all these bands, wanted to be like them. Bands like Guns N Roses and Motley Crue were still playing on the sunset Strip before they had, even when they had become popular. And so I was into all of that. But we never successfully made a band or anything, and I never was successful in any band, but it was a sort of a lifestyle that was dragging me down. I was living in the middle of Hollywood when the Rodney King riots happened in 92, I think it was, and I was like, nope, no more rock star dreaming. We're moving. And literally packed everything in my car that I could and moved a couple hours north to Thousand Oaks just to get away from Los Angeles. And through my work at the grocery store, I met somebody in Thousand Oaks who had a room for rent, so I had a place to go. Living in LA during the riots was eye opening. But as scary as it was with seeing everything, I really still wasn't thinking much about God at that point, either. And that was early twenties when I moved up to Thousand Oaks and transferred from one grocery store to another up there, started working there, and I went back to junior college to get into broadcasting, which is something that started to interest me. I put music away, and I was like, well, I could do broadcasting. People say, I have a good voice. I'll look into broadcasting. So I went back to a junior college for broadcasting. And that was in my early twenties. I still had the mindset of a rock star when I moved to Thousand Oaks. And I ended up, in a long story short, I ended up in a classroom, a class, a media class with. Sat next to a girl. And she had. She was about my age, and she thought she could clean me up and fix me and invited me to church. And I don't know why I had to go through it this way, but it was kind of a dating evangelism sort of thing where she took me to church. I didn't want to go to church. I went to church for her. It was not a healthy relationship, but she was a Christian. And so the message, the first message I heard going to church formally as an adult was the pastor asking people for money. I was just like, no, no, no.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: And it fed all your negative stereotypes.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: I was like, okay, if there is a God, it's not. He's not here.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: You know, or this is the base. This is the basement of all religions right here.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:20:21] Speaker A: And so the guy, the pastor said, you know, somebody today is going to have to give up their Ferrari.
And I was just like, no. What? And I walked out and I sat in the car and I waited for her to come out. And I was like, look, we're not. I'm not coming back here. This is ridiculous. She's like, well, it's not always like this. This is the only time I've ever heard him say things like that and blah, blah, blah, whatever. So.
But through her, she gave me a Bible, and I started reading the Bible and actually went back to that church and actually got baptized in that church.
It was about a six month process where I would say, in short, jesus stuck around and the gal left. She's like, once I became what she was aiming for me to become, she took off.
So I was like, okay, I was not the rebel bad guy anymore.
She didn't like that.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: I'd like to take a break from our story to share some amazing feedback. We've been hearing about our podcast at X Skeptic. We love hearing from you. Our listeners on how this podcast is impacting you. Like someone from Pittsburgh in the US who says, this is such a helpful and encouraging podcast. It is helping me engage more with my skeptical family and friends in a meaningful way. Thank you for sharing these stories.
We also recently heard from another listener who said, thank you so much for this podcast. Three out of my four children are atheists or agnostics, and your podcast has helped to lift me out of despair and given me hope to pray again. They've also given me insight and more wisdom on how to interact with my children and others.
We hope our stories and advice from former skeptics have been as meaningful for you as they have been for these two listeners. If so, we would love hearing from you through our
[email protected] or through our website. We would also greatly appreciate your taking the time to rate, review and share our podcast on your podcast platform so even more people can benefit from these compelling stories and wise it advice from former skeptics. Now back to our story.
So, yeah, so I'm sitting here wondering how you went from going outside, leaving the church, going outside, sitting in your car, being so offended by this pastor, the basement of all religions, to then actually being willing or open to look at the Bible.
How did that happen?
[00:22:55] Speaker A: I don't know, Jana. I don't know.
I can't. There's not a moment within that window of time that I could tell you. Well, this made me want to go back. She gives me a Bible and I start reading it. Why?
I don't know, except that the spirit of God must have been drawing me to do so. So I started keeping a journal with questions that I had. But I felt like the Bible was kind of reading me. And this was intriguing. And the thing that sticks out most to me from that time was reading through proverbs. At the suggestion of somebody, I said, well, just read psalms and proverbs. And so I started reading proverbs. And I thought my first instance, my first encounter with the Bible, sort of reading me, Washington gosh, I'd really like to be that, the wise person that the proverbs always speak about. But why is it that I feel like I'm the fool? Like every the wise man does this, the fool does that. I'm like, gosh, I'd like to be that guy. But I'm more like this guy.
The wise man does this, the fool does that. The wise man does this, the fool does that. And by the end of that, I was like, do I tell anybody that I'm really feeling like fool. I didn't have anybody coming alongside me to help me understand what was going on, but I knew this was true.
This was like the same conviction I had when I was seven about Linus reading from Luke. This is true. This is the word of God. If God exists, this is it. I don't need to study in comparative religions to know that this Bible is the word of God. That was the conviction, Janet. The Bible is the word of God. And in 30 years that I have never wavered in that conviction.
And so I plowed through trying to read the Bible, and ignorantly, I just thought there was no difference. I didn't understand the difference between the Old and New Testaments or law and gospel or anything like that. I just thought, you obey God. And little did I know, as a struggling non christian, striving towards the light a little bit, that you can't obey God, that the whole point of the scriptures, the law, is to reveal our sin, which was what was happening to me in proverbs. And I didn't know it at the time. I just thought, man, in order to be a follower of God, I need to obey him, but why can't I obey him? And for years I struggled with that, even after my baptism. But I jumped in the water in complete ignorance. I mean, I don't even know if I knew what sin was. I just knew that the Bible was the word of God and that Jesus was like, come here. So I think, Jen, I say all this to say that the way God brought me into the water and when I got baptized, I think he was very, very gentle because I just. I don't know how much my past has affected me. And I'm not going to play the blame game and say all my problems are because of what I went through. But I think God knows ultimately how gentle to be with me and he's been. I would categorize it as being very gentle. In my ignorance. I just, he didn't, you know, like he says to the disciples, he says, I have many things to share with you now, but you can't bear them. And I would say that that's been my christian life. I have many things to tell you now, but you're not ready for them just because of where you are emotionally, intellectually. And so he gave me what I could bear as I went along. And even at my baptism in 1990, was it 93? Yeah, 93.
I didn't know anything except the Bible was the word of God and that Jesus was somebody that was calling me to him.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: During the time that you were. You were praying, you were reading through the proverbs, and you were seeing that there was something in yourself, that you were more the full than the wise man, and that there was something convicting about that. And you were still a little bit adverse to the idea of Jesus, although you were okay with God, you were feeling some kind of conviction, some kind of sense that, yes, I'm not who I should be or who I want to be, and that God exists. You were believing that the Bible is God's word, and it was actually reading you. The text was reading you.
So walk us. Give us the steps forward from there.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: Well, the gem in all of those texts about the proverbial fool was proverbs three, five, six.
And this ignited.
I say this was the catalyst that gave me the ability to persevere, I suppose. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths. I think that was the anchor verse that I'm like, okay, I don't need to understand all this right now. I just need to trust what God is doing. That made perfect sense to me. And I think what God has done in my life since then, Jana, has been to sort of break me gently so that there's this gradual submission to the extent like, when exactly is the first light before sunrise. And so it was kind of like a gradual submission to Jesus over time, like a sunrise, like, eventually the sun is brilliantly bright in the sky, and you're like, yes, Lord. I recognize the difference between the law and the gospels and recognize that what was happening to me as someone reading the Bible for the first time was a conviction of sin, but that all Janna, actually, for the first three, five years of my christian walk, was very legalistic, was very much trying to be the wise person, was very much works oriented. I was in a church for a long time that basically, though everybody was loving and well meaning, even the pastor, who was very kind to me as a mentor.
Much of the sermon was self help. If you do this, then God will do this for you. You need to do this before God will do this for you. And I just despaired of that, not realizing that what I was hearing, and I don't blame that church.
I think that it just all culminated into a works righteousness to where I was so frustrated, I didn't want to do Christianity anymore. And this was, like, after the zeal wears off. So about five years after I became a Christian, like my father, I tried to take my own life because I couldn't measure up to God's standards. I didn't think I had lost a job at a school, and I wasn't a very good Christian. I was comparing and contrasting myself to other believers, and I just finally hit a pit of despair. And I'm like, you know, why not? I have nothing left to live for. And God rescued me from that. And I'll kind of couch it this way.
You've seen what you can do, Daniel, or what you do, what you do and what it amounts to. I am now going to show you what I can do. And so I.
In the moment, I was sitting in my car in my garage in Tennessee with the car running, and I just. God gently said, turn it off and go call your friend. And so I called a friend, and she had been praying. They were in a Bible study, and they were praying, and then they knew I was in danger. And that just was, like, a very sobering moment. How did they know there was no. Nobody knew what I was doing? How did they know I knew what I was doing? And that revealed to me that God knew what I was doing. And at that moment, it was kind of like a romans twelve moment, where it's like, okay, here's proverbs three, five, and six. Again, I don't know what God is doing. I don't know why he spared me. But I just want to stay alive now to see what God will do.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. You've spoken about the difference between law and the gospel, and that it was the law. You know, the law brings. It makes us conscious of our own sin. Right. And that we can't live up to that kind of standard. And it really drove you to the brink of despair.
But here you are, sitting, years later, having found, it seems something different. How would you speak of how the gospel overcame that sense of performance and striving, that the burden and the weight of the law that was upon you, of never feeling good enough.
Can you explain, perhaps, for those who've never even heard this concept of gospel, what does that mean?
[00:31:28] Speaker A: The bad news has to precede the good news. And for some of us, that can be an intellectual. Oh, I get that. Okay. Yeah. And for me, it had to be experiential. I really had to come face to face with how wretched I was. So I had the intellectual knowledge that something was wrong with me. Reading proverbs, suicide attempt, was experiential knowledge. And so, conceptually, you combine those two things, and you are ready for the good news. It's not good news unless you really fully encounter the bad news. But the good news is that Jesus has done all the work that is necessary for salvation. I've seen more concretely just how common it is for human beings to have this sense of, I have to earn my way, I have to earn the favor. I have to earn my salvation. I have to earn the favor with the guru or the teacher. I have to do the works in order to be pleasing to the person that I believe in or whom I'm following. And this is. Christianity is antithetical to all of that. It's the only.
It's the only worldview in which the God at the head of it does all the work for those who wish to follow him. Jesus death on the cross, his resurrection, is our justification. And it's taken me 20 years, Janna, to fully and completely embrace that good news, because it's just unbelievable to me. It still remains unbelievable to me from somebody who has had mostly a performance oriented lifestyle. It's hard for me to wrap my head around that news. It truly is good. If it's true, it's truly wonderful. So it's truly good news, though, that I don't have. There's nothing I can do to earn my salvation. And I think through the struggles that God has led me, Jana, that there's no way I'm standing before Jesus and trying to justify myself by the works that I've done. I know they're not good. I know what my works add up to, but that it's only by the mercy of Jesus and his righteousness that I'm able to stand and. And maybe I wouldn't even be standing. Her works have no place in terms of trying to justify ourselves before God. So the good news is that God has done the work for us. For me, this is a miracle, Jana. I go from a guy who's about to take his own life in his garage 20 years ago to interviewing scholars and theologians and astronauts and having a degree and having a ministry. How did that happen? It is all by the grace and mercy of Jesus. I did not. I'm not smart enough to have planned this for myself.
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Wow. You know, what an amazing transformation.
And I'm sitting here thinking, too, you were given, in a way, a gift of faith. A gift of belief, even as a child, that you knew something was true about what Linus was saying. You knew something was true when you opened the Bible and you could actually see yourself mirrored. I mean, what it was speaking to you was true, and you just knew it.
You accepted Christ, you were baptized, and you became a Christian. It's not as if you did a lot of intellectual due diligence. Okay, let me determine whether or not the reliability of this text is sufficient for the text to be believed. You didn't go through the philosophical arguments of God or any of that. But yet beyond that, here you are sitting as a minister of sorts, contending for the truth of Christianity versus other world religions. You pursued a master's degree in apologetics to give a reasoned defense for the christian belief. Of course, we would all love to grab onto the grace of God. It is good news.
But how do you know that it's true? I mean, you knew it was true again because you were given that gift, but yet you went on to.
To, I guess, confirm its veracity. You know, that there was something inside of you that wanted to really understand and know, you know, you're one who pursues the hard questions.
So why did you do that, and how do you know? I guess those are two really big questions.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Well, this is like the essay question that after you finish your english test and the teacher hits you, there's just one sentence and a long blank underneath that. And you use extra paper if you need to. Yeah. Thanks, Janae. Thanks a lot.
I'm glad you asked that question, because I have. Since then, I've been on a lot of atheist podcasts, and I've had a lot of engagement with atheists. One of our ministry, I'm a part of two book clubs. One is an atheist book club here in Dallas, and another is our own ministries, atheist and christian book club. And I've been on some atheist podcasts, and I'm always asked, often asked, how do you know the Bible is true? What about Islam or Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism or something like that? So I would say, and this is something that I think is lost in our culture today that I didn't know back then. But. But it's going to sound super simple, and it's not going to be intellectually satisfying to the, to the ardent skeptic who's looking for reasons not to believe, because a lot of times when that question is posed to me, Jenna, it's used as a gotcha. It's used as, see, I'm going to expose your ignorance so that I can continue to be comfortable in my unbelief. But for those people that are seeking, like, genuinely, I've been before, people who are genuinely asking me this question, as you have, I can say this.
God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Trinity, his revelatory truth in speaking to a soul is sufficient. If that's all he gave me, Jana, that would have been enough. But the truth of the matter is that even the most erudite skeptic, philosopher and atheist knows that there's some kind of idea that we call truth. How do they know this? But they have a problem grounding what they mean by truth. Now, a lot of times, they will appeal to empirical evidence. Well, see, there's a star out in the sky, and we can measure its distance, and we can have this empirical data to verify that I'm justified in believing that the sun is 93 million mile away. A lot of people think that's what truth is. It needs some empirical backing. But for me, the sufficiency of the word of God, the sufficiency of God himself. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life. Now, this didn't satisfy the skeptical pharisees and Sadducees Pontius Pilate. When he's about to sentence Jesus, or considering what to do with Jesus, he says, what is truth? And Jesus doesn't respond to him. It doesn't give him a long answer. And this is one of the reasons why I thought the gospels were authentic. Because if this was made up that Pilate's question would have been followed by a long soliloquy of some, some philosopher trying to articulate in thousands of pages what truth is. But the fact of the matter is, Jannah, that God is truth, his word is truth. He is true and he's powerful, and he is capable of revealing to people in any way that he so can through a still, small voice or a voice from heaven or a lightning bolt on the road to Damascus. God's revelatory truth to a human soul is sufficient. That is the epistemic ground of how I ultimately know. Now, that doesn't satisfy the erudite, ardent skeptic. It's not intellectually supported with footnotes. It's not a thousand page book or anything like that. But that's the foundation for me. But to the other side of that question, in terms of me pursuing the hard questions, I did want to have answers that tied back into this, in terms of relationship to how I explain my faith to christians or to non christians, and how I was always curious. It's like, well, how is this guy who lived 2000 years ago and died on a cross and resurrected? How is he relevant for us today? So that started my lifelong inquiry into being able to understand some of the most important questions being put to christians throughout history. I was not literally, I was not trying to be omniscient as God was. I was just wanting to have a knowledgeable defense for why I believe. And I wanted to be able to answer or at least understand the questions that were being posed to Christianity. And so very early on, I started reading books. And then I got interested in apologetics again, not to be omniscient, but to give a defense, to have thought through my faith. I know people aren't going to accept what I say, necessarily. Apologetics, I think, for me, has served as something that has strengthened my faith. I see apologetics as I've seen it in my own life, and encouragement, a way to bolster and support what I believe rationally, but with the same sense of knowing that, of course, that's not how I came to Christianity, but I did. It's how it kept me in Christianity.
I wasn't, I wasn't like, oh, I'm doubting. I'm doubting Christianity. I need answers. It was more like, no, I want answers to the questions that people are asking so I don't look like an idiot.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: I really appreciate the fact that God can and does communicate in ways that are far deeper and richer than, say, a propositional argument for himself, because he is a spirit and mind, as are we, like you say, and he can communicate in ways that we can know.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: I put no stock in apologetics any more than what God would want me to put into it. And so I use it as a tool with the humble recognition of open hands and frailty. And I talk to a lot of atheists who are totally unconvinced of some of the best apologetic defenses that are out there.
I used to be bothered by that. I'm not now, because I know how God can move in somebody by something simple that I share, even though I may not ever know it. So that's kind of where I'm at with that.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. Actually, Daniel, I'm thinking of those curious skeptics who are honest seekers. They're not just resisting for the sake of skepticism. They really are listening to you and they're hearing a. That you have found something pretty substantive, something very real and meaningful and really intellectually robust to boot.
And they are interested in taking a step forward, or, you know, what would that be? What would that look like for them? Would it be like, in your case, where they took a bible and they opened it up and began to read it and allow it to read them? I mean, what would it be? What do you think I would be their, their next step?
[00:43:44] Speaker A: I, given my experience, I would hate to give you a one size fits all. What's your next step? Because oftentimes the next step is more like a voice, could be a voice behind you saying, this is the way. Walk in it. So I don't know. You know, you could.
You could go to the. Go to an IMAX movie with your girlfriend and be having popcorn and something is said in the movie and suddenly you believe in God. My friend Sarah Salviander, who was an astrophysicist, was an atheist raised in a canadian atheist household, was studying at UC San Diego, I think it was. And she, she was walking across the campus one day wondering about where all the universe came from, and it was an epiphany moment, Damascus Road, in the sense that it's all God. Now, Sarah wasn't, you know, seeking all of that, but that began her journey. So I think I can say basically that if you're interested in this, to read the Bible and read the Bible, but I know atheists well enough to know that they're not going to want to necessarily tell a Christian that they're interested in reading the Bible, because they don't. They've been so, especially the ones that have been so vocal about their atheism, they're still trying to maintain that.
I don't want to call it a facade, I don't mean to demean them, but it's really difficult for skeptics to reach out to christians for whatever, a multitude of reasons.
My faith in Christ came pretty much in isolation. I wouldn't say that's the best way to do it, but I would say just be on the watch for God's going to do stuff that you're not even thinking about. So I would hate to make this a method and more like just be an observer. Go to the top of the mountain and keep your eyes open because it's coming. Not like I would tell you to do this, that or the other thing. I would say just be, just watch what God is going to do. Because it's more like that people that are apprehended by Jesus, it's Christianity, happens to them more than it is something, a series of decisions that they do. So I guess my best advice would be to go to just be aware and watch and see what God is going to do and to recognize that the steps that are going to lead you to the cross aren't going to, probably aren't going to be the ones that you thought of.
And so I would be hesitant to say what that would look like for each individual person. So my best advice would just be to watch and to wait. And if you're interested in Goddesse, I guarantee you things are going to start happening. I mean, your book documents a lot of these out of the blue moments that were sort of catalysts that these people were not expecting. And I think that's genuine faith, where your testimony is not a series of decisions you made, but a series of things that happened to you and just be there and watch it and watch what God will do.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that kind of paradigm shift of being on the receiving end of God, being open, you know, like you say, being watchful. So finally, Daniel, as I think of your story as christians, thinking of how we as christians can at least be in the world of those who are seeking, who are watching for God, I think of the family, of course, that took you in and showed you what it looked like to, to genuinely love, be generous and available with you and through you, and it gave you a sign pointer to God and how you are even intentional now in engaging with those who don't believe, with atheists, you are in book clubs, you are in conversation, you are actively in the lives of those who don't believe. So in some way you can demonstrate not only the love of Christ, but also the robustness of it, and that it's worthy of belief, that he is worthy of belief. How would you encourage us as christians to, you know, somehow be in that space where others who are watching can get a glimpse of God?
[00:47:59] Speaker A: What I think the Bible means is not like we pretend to be children or that we, we just kind of put on this cloak of naivety.
It means literally trusting in God's power and sovereignty and majesty to be able to work in a person's life. In other words, in our day and age of technology and control, we tend to want to steer, direct control, manipulate, even though we don't realize that's what we're doing. You know, a lot of evangelism many decades ago was trying to get people to confess Jesus after a five minute presentation from a gospel tract. So I would say go into a conversation. And I've interviewed Greg Kohl this past year, too. I've interviewed him about both of his books in relation to evangelism. And Greg uses the analogy of gardening. And the scriptures are replete with analogies of gardening when it comes to engaging the world with the gospel.
If you plant a seed and your aim is to plant a seed again, getting back to what I said to our skeptic friends that might be listening, watch what God will do. Don't try to be God and control or manipulate that person in a certain direction. God is leading that person in a certain direction. You're just along for the ride to plant a seed. So don't have these grandiose expectations that every person you talk to is going to automatically accept what you believe. That's one thing I've learned from engaging my skeptic friends through our book clubs and stuff, is these people aren't impressed with these arguments. Okay, so what if that doesn't work, then what are you gonna do? And then you're just left going to beep and, you know, the atheist walks away. Justified fingers. Yes, I silenced another christian. Why do I want to believe this stuff? And so if you're, you demonstrate a confidence in what you're saying as true without feeling like, because if you take it personally, it's really gonna become a battle of vindictiveness, you know, where you're just trying to assert I that you're right and they're wrong, rather than trusting in childlike faith that God is sovereignly in control in leading that person to him. And so you just kind of get out of the way and do what the Holy Spirit leads you to do in those moments as he guides you, as he gives you those words. And don't fret if you get vilified. You know, I mean, look at the outcome of Paul and Mars Hill. Some believed, some mocked, some said, we'll hear you again on this matter. So just relax and rest and trust in childlike faith in God as you go forth and engage people without expectations of those people. We have expectations of what God is doing, but don't put expectations on your unbelieving friends or family members.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: There is such deep wisdom in that. Daniel, it's obvious to me that you have really spent so much time not only with the Lord, but understanding and being with those who don't believe as well. What you're describing here is giving reasons with gentleness and respect. You know, for the other, you are a beautiful example of who we're meant to be in the world. Trusting, like you say, in childlike faith that this is, that God has got it and that we're trusting in him working in the lives of those whom he loves, that he's drawing to himself.
I think sometimes we do put too much pressure on ourselves, that it's up to us somehow.
[00:51:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And I will say that all the stuff that I've learned has come through suffering, through suffering and difficulty and being embarrassed by conversations where I wanted to just win the conversation or play gotcha with atheists. You know, you learn trial by fire. So, you know, the best advice, I would say, would get out there and try it and realize that you will fall on your face when you're talking to unbelievers. I mean, but don't worry about it. They're watching you and they're listening to you and, you know, you just continue to live the christian life like Barb did for me, you know, without ever trying to win an argument with me. She won arguments with me through how she provided and opened her home.
You know, that. That really set the concrete for. Okay, that's what Christianity really looks like, or that's what people who believe in God look like. Okay. And, you know, in my dream, I don't know if God will do it, but my. My dream has always been that I could do something like the libertarians did for me. But never having been married, it would be hard. I would love to have. I'd love to have a second phase of life where I'm doing for a child or some children what Barb and Jack did for me. I would really like to do that.
That's the only thing on my bucket list. Really?
[00:52:50] Speaker B: Well, that's a beautiful dream. And it's worth having on your bucket list for sure. Daniel, just a really beautiful, wonderful story you've given to us. Your time with you has been not only delightful, but I feel like we've just been kind of learning at your feet. You are so filled with wisdom and you're so God centered and trusting. And your faith is. It runs deep and it shows just through your words. You can see your heart, but also your mind and what a beautiful, fully orbed example you are of who we're called to be as ambassadors for Christ. And I just really, really appreciate you coming on and not only telling your story, but also sharing those pearls of wisdom.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: Sure. Well, thank you, Janice. It's humbling and encouraging at the same time. Thank you for saying all that.
I need to hear that more from other people because it's always a personal struggle. You're never done struggling, but it does take me talking to other people to see how God is working in my life because my mirror is really dirty.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: Believe me, I understand.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty bad. So I need that. And so thank you.
It was fun. I hope it goes well for you.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Oh no, I think so many people will be blessed through this. So thanks again.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:54:13] Speaker B: Thanks for tuning in to ex skeptic to hear Daniel Ray's story. You can find out more about his ministry, the watchmen, as well as his recommended resources in the episode notes for questions and feedback about this episode, you can contact me through our
[email protected] dot. Also, if you are a skeptic and would like to connect with a former guest with questions, please contact us on our website or email and we'll get you connected. This podcast is produced through the CS Lewis Institute in the help of our wonderful producer Ashley Decker, audio engineer Mark Rosara, and ministry assistant Lori Burleson. You can also see these podcasts in our video form on our YouTube channel through the excellent work of our video editor, Kyle Polk. Jordan Harmon is our amazing graphic designer. If you enjoy this episode, I hope you'll follow rate, review and share this podcast with your friends and social network. In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to seeing you next time where we'll hear another unlikely story of belief.
