[00:00:00] Speaker A: And I'm wagging my finger at them and I'm like, you guys are just a bunch of goody little two shoes. And you know what, in your Bible it says that if you receive Jesus that you become like a Christian. And that's all it is to be a Christian. It's not to be like all good and high and mighty and you know, be all like this good person. So overly good. It's just about receiving Jesus. And I just did that.
So I have the same status as you guys.
And I thought that was going to tick them off because in the hockey team and when you, you know, point your finger at people and you do something like that, they would get mad at you and want to fight you. And that's what I was kind of trying to do. And instead they were like on, congratulations, oh my gosh, you're, this is amazing. Welcome into the kingdom of God, blah, blah. I don't even remember what they were saying. I was just like, like, oh cool. Like they like, why don't you guys accept me now? What is this? You know, I was like, you guys are so weird. You, you're great. I can't wait to get off this mountain. I can't wa back into the nightclubs because those people are normal. They're not weird. You know, like these strong Christians.
They were a peculiar people for sure.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: What does it look like to build a life entirely on your own without God? To decide that meaning is something you create, that strength comes from self reliance, that happiness, success and identity are things you earn, achieve or take if you're strong enough.
Hello and welcome to X Skeptic, where we share unlikely stories of belief and thoughtful advice from former skeptics and atheists who once tried to make sense of life without God. I'm your host Jana Harmon. Today's guest anle tried to fully live out that vision. Raised without religious commitment, shaped by family loss, and immersed in a worldview that said only what you can see is real.
On set out to build a life on his own terms through education, ambition, relationships and self will, God, if he existed at all, felt unnecessary, even irrelevant.
But over time, the pressure of carrying everything himself, identity, morality, purpose, success began to crack.
And without looking for God an found himself confronted by a situation he never expected to face before we hear on story. If you're new to X Skeptic, I'd love to stay connected. You can join our email list for new episodes and resources by heading to our
[email protected] and if you have your own questions and doubts and you'd like to talk with someone. You can also connect with one of our former guests who has walked a similar road. Email us at Info Skeptic and we'll get you connected. Now let's step into on's story.
Welcome to the Ex Skeptic podcast. On. It's so great to have you with
[00:03:02] Speaker A: me today, Dr. Jana. It is an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me on your show.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Oh, wonderful. On, as we're getting started, can you tell us a little bit about you, about your wonderful radio show and just a little bit about your life at the moment?
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, we are at a pivotal time for our ministry right now. We have been on the radio for over 10 years, Christian radio from Salem Radio to Wilkins Broadcasting all over the United States of America.
And you know, our goal is just basically to discover if Jesus is real because I had an encounter with him.
I discovered that, though I thought it was not real, that he is very real.
And I wanted to see is there more data? Is, is there more like, what does Jesus do today? You know, we hear that he affected people in the Bible, but what is he doing for people today? Is it truly just a religion that's kind of far, you know, kind of removed from people, or is it very hands on? Is Jesus like literally alive?
And I'm finding some interesting data.
So yeah, that's. It's called the Real Life radio Show. I've been the host of it for 10 years and our team is excited because we're getting ready to launch our video podcast on YouTube and yeah, it's super awesome stuff.
Dr. Deanna, we're also on secular and Christian radio and it's super exciting to have our content in places that our syndicator has been waiting to get into this space. And so far we're in this space.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: That's terrific. That's terrific. And probably by the time this airs, that YouTube channel will be up and running and we will have all the links to your radio show and I'd love to know where you're syndicated and we'll put all that in the show notes and so that all, all who are listening can find you in those places.
So you mentioned there that you have come a long way in your understanding of God and Jesus and faith.
So let's get started back in your childhood, because beliefs don't come out of a vacuum, right? They're, you know, they're, they're grounded in a story of who you are, how you were raised the people that, that raised you and the influences in your life. So let's start back at the beginning and tell me about your childhood, your parents, and their influence on you with regard to issues of religion or God or not at all.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Well, I grew up from a great family.
My parents were amazing.
My dad and my mom, they loved each other very much. When I was younger, I had everything. Lived in a middle class family, you know, always food on the table, able to go to school, safe environment all the time.
And it just felt so good to be with my mom and my dad. I'm Vietnamese 100%. So my parents were from Vietnam. They came during 1975, after the war, the fall of Saigon. They came as refugees to America.
And I was just born in the midst of it all. You know, they met at a refugee camp.
My dad comes from a Buddhist family and very, very religious Buddhist family. My mom comes from a Roman Catholic family.
Very religious Roman Catholic family. But she was like a rebelling Roman Catholic. She was like, not really, like she wasn't having it. She was, I believe in God, but not really sure, you know, and the nuns was, you know, cut the whole, you know, was kind of messing with her a little bit there.
So she didn't like it so much because she was raised in the Catholic schools in Vietnam where there's already a cultural harshness in education that's already there back then.
So imagine they come to America, they don't know anything, and they're just surviving. They really worked hard in order to provide me a great childhood.
And, you know, so they were both a religious.
And what I mean by that is that they were like, hey, listen, we can fight about religion, so let's just raise our son with no religion.
And so they decided, you know, and that was the rules, that was the agreement. They even brought it up to me. They're like, hey, you know, we're going to bring you to different things, but there's no pressure. You know, it's not who you are. You know, it's just this is how dad believes. This is how mom has to go to church.
So, you know, I view church as very boring. I remember Catholic service was just like, you know, like Domini baby, something, something. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, what is this about?
Nothing was explained. It was very boring. It was like torture for me as a child.
Then going to the Buddhist temple was another level of torture. You know, just like sitting there watching a gentleman in a robe and, you know, obviously the monk, Buddhist monk, and and, you know, hitting this. This little wooden turkey made like a drum.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: And it was, it's. It was setting a tempo of like prayer and meditation in the room. And I wasn't really sure about all that.
So I was exposed to religion, but to me as a kid, it didn't matter anything. I was happy with my family and that my family was secure and safe.
And when it came to believing in God, not really sure if there was a God, just. I just believed in whatever I saw.
My dad did try to raise me in Buddhism, so I'd say if any religion as a child that I grew up with, he would sneak me away, this is without my mom knowing. And he would pay me allowance to meditate.
So I experienced that a little bit.
And it was.
I wasn't very good at it. I definitely didn't want to do anything with religion because, you know, going to go on a temple, like, just for that long of time to even just behave myself and just sit still and, you know, for me as a kid, it didn't work. Just didn't work for me.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Well, and it sounds like you did have wonderful parents or still do have wonderful parents, but I know that your family situation wasn't smooth all the way through, and that was really, in many ways devastating for your life.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, talk about that.
It was in middle school and, you know, there's. There's some interesting things where my dad was dealing with some mental health issues and it would erupt in fights between my mom and my dad.
And sometimes I would be sent away. My dad would have these episodes where he would be very manic about religion.
So that further made me view religion as, like, negative. I remember this time where my dad was getting really into Buddhism and started arguing with this older Christian guy. It's like they just started arguing and, you know, and he was like, kind of getting in the guy's face and kind of getting angry. And I was like, what is. Why do we gotta do this? You know, I was like, what. What is this all about? This is like, so silly. I. I don't see any value in this at all, you know, so you guys disagree. And so again, another notch of why religion is completely useless in my mind as it. As a.
And then when my parents went through a divorce, that was a moment, I think that really shaped things because the family was like a nice boat. I was on a boat. And then suddenly that boat was sinking and. And I jumped ship.
Now, even though they did such a great job, my mom did a great job she tried to catch me, in a sense, you know what I mean? Like, she took care of me physically.
She did a great job as a mom.
But something happened where, you know, it's been a really hard thing where my dad, unfortunately, he made a very bad mistake that he. He actually left me. And my mom, Buddhism actually teaches that. So Buddhism had Siddhartha, and he left his family to discover enlightenment.
And so I think in his mind, he was having some issues at home, definitely. But then it was kind of like. But it was, you know, issues at home, plus Siddhartha did it. So it'll be fine for me.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Right?
[00:12:25] Speaker A: And it was messaged to me that way, and I was like, this religion stuff is bonkers, because if you're gonna go do that, like, that's great for you, but, like, what about. For me, you know, what about this kids, you know?
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: You know, like, what. Like, what happened to them? Because I'll tell you what. Like, it was very painful that day, when that happened. It was the most painful moment and the most traumatizing moment of my life. Now it's. There's many more people. I've interviewed people with way more trauma, okay? So I look at that moment and I'm like, that was so little. Little trauma, but it was enough.
It was enough for me to be like, there's no God. Because when he was leaving, I made a prayer and I prayed and I said, God, if you're.
If you're real, like, wherever you are, whatever you are, please save my family.
Please stop my dad from leaving.
Like, do something.
My mom's not here. Do something. Stop him. Like, he doesn't even know what he's doing.
And he walked out.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: How old were you then?
[00:13:37] Speaker A: I was, I think, about 11 or 12.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Very, very significant age for a young man, I think, to lose your father.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's the age where you're just trying to figure out who you are. You kind of. Kind of more of an awareness of like, how.
How am I going to be? Who am I going to be?
And in that moment, I was like, I'm not going to be like them.
You know what I mean? That was where I was like, okay, you guys got your religion, and you guys don't have your stuff figured out. Like, I'll find out my own way.
And at school, that's what I was learning, you know? I mean, Dr. Janet, were you learning that about school? And were you in secular school learning about how, like, survival, the fittest and, you know, we came from some primordial goo, you know?
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: So the standard. Standard protocol.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was learning about survival of the fittest, and that really stood out to me. I was like, survival the fittest. I like that because that's what I got to do right now. I got to stop boohoo crying. And, you know, at school, you got to be tough because you're in middle school. You can't just go cry to somebody in middle school, you know, so you got to be tough. And I just bottled up all those emotions, and I just was going to be tough. I'm going to be tough. I'm just going to make it through this, and I'm going to kind of be my own family.
And I started really looking more into.
I started really looking more into relationships with girls at this point, other people. I'm getting in trouble at school all the time now because I'm talking to people, and I'm just trying to. You know, I'm trying to find family. I'm trying to find st.
Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
When your foundation is rocked like that, it's just like you say, just the boat is broken and you don't want to sink, and you're scrambling to find your way. And again, that's just such a critical age for understanding who you are, your identity.
A lot of that is where you come from, and then that falls apart.
Yeah, that. That's really hard. So you were moving into a more scientifically minded worldview. It sounds like you were. You were introducing that concept.
It sounds like in your life, you became a little bit more interested in the sciences and what that. What that was and what that meant for reality and your view of reality.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. Dr. Tanner, what happened was, is as I was younger, I was like, hey, we're learning that in biology, in chemistry. It's like, okay, like, life is just what you see, you know, and. And you can test what you can see. That's what I'm learning in. In middle school, high school. And I'm learning that, you know, it's not.
It's just, you know, if you can see it and you can see an effect, then you can rely on it. But if you can't see it, you're just guessing.
And I started getting this thinking, like, religion is kind of superstitious.
Like, it's a superstitious, lucky kind of thing. You know, it seemed like that. And I was kind of like, wondering, like, what is religion? And I somehow came to in my mind, and I'm sure I was getting message to this somewhere that religion was just a man made construct. Oh, you know what? That's right.
I did learn it. It was like in history class or something like that. We're talking about philosophy or something like that, that religion is just a man made construct.
That thought came to me and that it's just something basically that, that, not that God made man, but that man made God.
And I was thinking, I was like, you know what, maybe that's what it is. Maybe like Christians and Buddhists, they just kind of made up this God so they could kind of get through life better and just hope things are better, but really they're just weak.
That's what I used to say. That's what I used to think. I was like, oh, I get it. It's like people with religion, they just need like a crutch in life. Like they don't even really know what they're doing. And you know, it's just like an excuse because of, they're not going to be survival the fittest, you know, so it's like, oh yeah, God and all this stuff and, and, and actually those. If we can get rid of God, if we can get rid of religion, we'll be able to do more useful things is what I thought. Especially, you know, because I saw religion as a waste of time.
I was like, wow, we could use time to do constructive things. We, we don't need God. God is just like this thing that is going to waste time and it's just something that make you feel better when you need help. But that's not the way we're made.
I'm being told in school it's about, it's about, you know, you got to survive, you got to be the best. Someone is going to eat your lunch if you don't eat someone else's lunch.
This kind of desperate.
Like there's only so much that goes around and if you don't get yours, like you, you're gonna miss out.
So I, being Asian, we're, I'm already like in an environment of expectation, high expectations on education.
Like education is everything. Dr. Jenna, in an Asian family, if you had, I'm not trying to stereotype here, okay?
But my family, many other families, we really identify, like, did you get good grades? Like to me to this day it's still kind of in me and my kids, education is a big deal.
And I'm sure because my family were immigrants coming here, they had to find a way to get into high level spots. But on my dad's side, they're all doctors, they're all dentists, they're pharmacists.
So business owners, really power powerful people that really highly valued and instilled education.
And also my mom's side, all teachers, you know, and, and engineers and you know, people again very, very into education.
So the idea was, is that I'm going to make sure I'm going to be like my dad's side of the family because they, those doctors were respected like and even I was asking no questions on everything and you know, they were like the doctor, the doctor Phil on everything, you know, everything. And I saw that, I was like, you know, I think I want that and but it's going to be up to me to make it happen.
And the thing about as an atheist is like it's really about the whole world is based upon whether you are going to make it happen or not, whether you are good or not. And if you're not good enough, you better find a way to be good enough.
And so there's a lot of insecurity that I had growing up as a young man because it's like everything is dependent upon me.
Everything is for me.
So as you can see I'm kind of turning into an interesting person here.
Probably kind of selfish, super nice guy.
You know, I've always been a super nice sociable person but definitely very self oriented, very selfish, very, you know, if it's going to help me to survive, if it's going to help me to win, I'm for it. If it's not going to help me to win, I don't want it.
And as far as morality, reality I was learning is that it's like survival the fittest. There is no real truth. You know, you're learning that there is no truth. There's no, you know, who says that it's wrong kind of thing. You know, it's only wrong if, if it's wrong to you.
These are the kind of concepts that I'm learning in high school through friends philosophy or talking about things and like kind of like how do we even know we exist? You know, and if we don't even know that we exist then how do we know something is right? And how do we know if something is true? How do we know if something is real?
So now even though I'm into the physical and that's the only thing I can hold on to now I'm learning philosophy and it's like well how do you even know if what you believe is real? How do you even know if you're even real? I mean like Well, I think therefore I am. It's like, okay, that's, it's, it's a lot of. For a young man to try to figure out.
And so life was for me in a sense, very focused on just getting to my goal. And my goal was to become a very rich doctor, make a lot of money, have a lot of fun. In college, a lot of, you know, I was planning to do to like have a lot of fun, party a lot, be with a lot of girls.
I got addicted to pornography as a young man.
And so that also shaped my ideology. And I was like, hey, you know, what a life with many girls before I ever get tied down. And I don't even know why I didn't get married anyways, because so many marriages end up in divorce. So I don't know, maybe I was single my whole life or I don't know, you know, I was just kind of like not sure. There was no definite.
As an atheist, I look back and I, there was no, there was nothing solid I could stand on and that was unnerving. The only thing I could stand on was myself.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Which is already a mess.
So. But you know, nobody knew.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, it seems like, okay, you call yourself an atheist, you're the bright one, you're the sober minded one about reality, you're the scientifically minded one, you're the captain of your own ship.
And there's, it's, it sounds in some ways very positive, you know, like this is a positive vision for life.
But when you kind of pull back the onion a little bit that pull the layers back and you go, okay, let's, let's look and see what's really in this, this world, that, that nature is all there is and I'm dependent upon myself. And you know, what does it really mean when there's no really right or wrong and I'm directing my own path. I mean, how did really affect your own life? You mentioned there that, that pornography was an issue and, but certainly in an atheistic worldview there's a certain view of, even if you take it down to survival of the fittest, it's like, you know, you know, people are means to an end in a sense. You know, they're for your pleasure, you know, they're for your use. And what's wrong with that? You know, I think I could see how in your young mind you could easily justify that actually
[00:24:43] Speaker A: your morality is forming. When you're a young man, you're just trying to figure out and you Know, my family had a lot of morals.
So like it, like my family were not like one night stand people.
They were not like party people.
They were not. And that's kind of culturally with Vietnam, you know, it's like, no, no, no, don't, don't do that. And if it's done, it's probably done in secret, you know? You know what I mean? But I didn't see any of it.
So I had this thing as an atheist, like, hey, you know what? I don't need God to be good.
I'll be better than those religious people. Like you can be good on your own. You just got to be a better person. You just work on yourself. It was a lot of self improvement.
But there was a funny thing is that, but then what is better?
And when you're a young man, I don't realize, but if you don't know what's true, you, you don't know what's better. So again, everything is contradicting in my life before because I was like, well, there's no God for sure, right? So. And I definitely, you know, you don't see him. He's not there.
Ghosts and all that stuff? Like, no, it's probably just some type of superstition.
So I was very anti, I was anti spiritual. Anything you can't see that's bogus is probably something scientific that can explain it. You know, he's the God of the gaps. I really identify with that where it's like, yeah, anything you can't explain, you just say, God did it. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. That's because you don't want to sit there and analyze it. I will analyze it. You know, that's what I was. And that's what I would do at. Late at night. Here's what it looks like in reality. Late at night, not being able to sleep, analyzing everything, analyzing yourself. Did I do good? Am I going to do good tomorrow? Are things going to go well?
How do I know I'm gonna be able to perform well tomorrow? Did you study well enough? You know, like, it's like it's, it's kind of mind boggling. There's no peace with it.
And then when it came to pornography, which is really weird because if it really was okay, then it would be done much more open in the public.
But why?
Even as an atheist, it was always a private shh thing.
It's always like this, like, okay, nobody's looking.
I have my time to myself, me and my computer. Do you know what I mean? Like why, why did it have to be that I didn't know that even though. And. And like, afterwards, it was like I was trying to justify it because you feel maybe this natural shame or whatever it was. But I learned younger that, you know, nobody knew. And then if they did know or they, they did bring it out, remember, as they got older, friends would talk about it and it was like, okay, well, that's like normal, you know, I'm like normal. That was what life was about. Having the dream woman, having the dream car, having the dream house, making sure that I was doing better and surviving and thriving and being super happy. And I believed that that would make me happy, that those who have will be happy. Those who survive will be happy. Because I knew that before, during the divorce, I was not happy. And actually it took a lot of my childhood happiness away.
Yes, it really altered things. So, you know, that's what I really thought. So morality was, does it make me happy? It's good. Does it not make me happy?
It's probably bad.
That's really bad morality, Janet.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Well, I think it's a very common view of morality, isn't it? It's about what will make me happy. You were moving along in your life and you were doing what you thought to be all the right things and all the right things for you.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: Pretty much. I'm just being honest.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: So where did it start to trip up for you? When did this master plan of education and money and women and car and. And all of that start to break down?
[00:28:44] Speaker A: So I'm learning in college that it's like, well, survival. The fittest is the most dominant animals, like, you know, in nature are the ones who spread their gene pool the most, the most dominant ones, because the most dominant genes are the ones are going to rule. So that, that's why things are fighting, because the stronger ones are going to be able to mate with the most females. And I was just like, huh, that's, that's. That's what I want to do, you know, I know it Sounds so silly, Dr. Janet, but that was actually.
I didn't ever verbalize this.
This was this. And this is. What's. This is. This is. This can be going on behind the scenes in someone's mind, but these are the desires that are being built, you know, as a young man.
And so I would get in relationships with girls, and I somehow always found myself somehow at some fun church function of all things.
And I'd always be attracted to. And a Christian girl would always be attracted to me, and it was always a Christian Girl.
And what happened was, is that I would get in a relationship with this girl. And then unfortunately, like, these are really innocent girls.
And unfortunately, because of what I saw, I was demoralizing them and actually turning them towards atheism. Like, I'd meet them at church and they think I was. I didn't say I was Christian or not. They never asked. And really. And it was. But here's, here's the thing, here's the reality. I was always with a girl that I could get, but I was always hoping to get something better.
Do you know what I'm saying?
So I'd be with a girl and I'd want to do all these things that people usually wait till they're married.
But. So the girl's thinking, I'm in love with the girl, but I'm actually just experimenting what I see and using the girl. They were really good girls. They weren't toxic. There wasn't any problems, there wasn't any fights. I just disappear and break their hearts. Like, hey, it's not going to work out. And the truth is, because with pornography, enough is never enough. So that's what's happening, you know? And unfortunately, I broke two Christian girls hearts very severely.
One was in college.
She really.
And I said I loved her. She, she said she loved me. Real sweet girl. And we had a long distance relationship in college as we left high school to her high school sweethearts going into college, trying to keep it together.
And I convinced her to, you know, and I gave her a promise ring, not an engagement ring, okay, A promise ring to marry her. And it was all being emotional with her, but I knew that it wasn't enough because I still wanted what I saw, right? And unfortunately, you know, I, she, I convinced her to move to Colorado from Florida and she dumped her scholarship for me.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Oh, my.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: This is dangerous.
She goes against the wisdom from her parents. And her parents are like, what on earth are you doing, my child?
And she's an adult and she falls in love with me. She's bragging about me. I'm the greatest thing on earth.
She follows me to Colorado, we move in together. We don't understand anything about how this is gonna work.
And I'm seeing clubs, I'm seeing there's other girls on campus, you know, and gosh, what a jerk. I can't believe I was a jerk. I can't even talk about this.
What a jerk. I just want to smack that kid.
She gave everything for me. Dr. Jenna, she really loved me a lot.
And she, she came across And I ate and was like, done.
You know, I basically had everything that she gave.
And then that promise ring was, Was. Was abused because I just was like, hey, you know, I don't think it's going to work out. I think we need some time apart.
And, like, immediately I was with another girl. This wrecked her bad, and I didn't understand because, like, my heart, too, started getting wrecked. Even though I broke up, even though I was like, hey, you know, I'm done. Everything's good. But something was tied for me to her, and I started feeling depression. And so this survival of the fittest, this spread your genes, this behavior is beginning to tear my insides. I couldn't do it. That was the first time I was getting really bad grades. Dr. Janet. And it was bad. Like, oh, my gosh, this is. And for me, that was everything. I needed to get A's, maybe B's, but in order to even feel good about myself, I could not live with a C or lower. I just. It would be game over. And I know that might sound silly to people, but that was what was going on my, My heart and how I was raised.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: And I. I started really failing that class.
And I did everything. I was basically at the teacher's feet, like, please, like, help me. Like, somebody help me. Just somebody help me, you know? And this whole toughness began to melt, you know, just, you know, just make it happen. I cannot. I can't. I'm not made for. I'm not made for calculus.
So I'm running into walls here.
I'm super depressed. I'm struggling with anxiety every night. And I remember, like, my mom was like, hey, you know, are you sleeping? Well, my mom would always be really worried that I would have the same mental illness as my dad.
And so there was that pressure, and she was like, well, you know, the precursor is when you really. He would always stay up night worrying he couldn't sleep. And I was like,
[00:35:01] Speaker B: yes.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, no, am I? And I didn't have anything to grab hold of.
It's. That's the thing about atheists. You can only grab on to yourself and reality.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: Everything else is just like, it's either good for me or not good for me.
And.
And I was nice and trying to figure things out in life, but there was no meaning. Oh, that's another thing.
Like, what is the meaning of life?
You got to make your meaning. That's what I was told. You know, there's no meaning. You're just this primordial goop that Just kind of came together. So you just got to kind of evolve your meaning, your purpose. And the meaning is to survive. The meaning is to find happiness.
And that's about it.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: And yeah, your facade was, was crumbling a little, and the, the trail, the trail to happiness was leading you astray, you know.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Well, you know, what's really strange to me is that I had everything that would make me happy. Started meeting girls at the clubs and it was just like, you know, and like we're getting closer to that level. That was all life was about.
And it was so empty and so unstable and so worrisome.
I had so many things like, am I going to be good enough to make it?
Am I going to be able to truly be that guy that everyone looks up to?
Am I going to be able to succeed? Am I even going to be able to make money? How does that work?
You know, Am I going to really like doing this job or something repetitive my whole life? Like, man, this is like, how am I going to do this? How is this going to work?
And I. Another thing is, what is the definition of a man? How do you be a man? What is it to be a man? And my dad kind of became absentee at that point. He'd see me here and there, but, you know, so I was not really sure. I didn't, I don't know where I was going, I don't know what I was doing.
And that depression really got me, got me really bad.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: So you're in this place where you're seeking after everything that, that you're supposed. The world is telling you, you know, that the world will satisfy and it's the reality that you live in. And this dog eat dog kind of naturalistic universe you're making your way, but it's not all that it was meant to be for you. And you have found yourself because you, you broke a girl's heart and you're feeling depression over that. You're having emptiness in your life.
So, and you're, you're, you're depressed. So does that lead you to a place of openness, to the possibility of, hey, well, maybe there's something else. Is there something different? Is there a different way?
Uh, how, how does you know? I'm just wondering how, how your road moves in the direction towards God?
[00:37:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that, Dr. Jenna, you would think that that would be a point where I call it to God. But no, I don't.
[00:38:04] Speaker B: No, no, doesn't happen there. Okay.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: Really depressed. I'm driving home and I see 7, 7, 7, on my odometer. And though I was against superstition, I had this superstition on the number seven. Seven. Seven. That was my lucky day.
So I'd be like, wow. And it made me feel just a little bit better. Just that one moment, just. It was like an inkling of feeling better. And this thought suddenly runs through my head, why don't you go to church?
And I was just like, like, really? Go to church? To go to church, you know, like, yeah, right. And I'm, like, arguing with this thought.
And I was like, that is. That is dumb. And I'm driving right by a church. So right when that voice went through, I saw this church right on this side right here.
And I'm driving, and I'm like, church? Yeah. Get brainwashed, you know? And I'm just like. Kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna go to church. And, you know, those guys are brainwashed. These guys are like cults. They're gonna try to convert me. They're gonna try to be like, oh, you need to be a Christian to be saved. You're gonna go to hell. They're gonna try to scare me into their religion. You know, they're gonna. They're just gonna. They're just such manipulative people. I hate this. That's what I always thought.
And so I really was anti Christian.
Now a couple weeks later, I'm feeling depressed, and I get that same. I go by the same church, but it's on this side because, you know, it's the road coming home, right? And I hear that voice. Like, it's like a. It was like a thought. It wasn't like a voice. It was like a thought. It was like, why don't you go to church? Like, go to church. Why don't we go to church?
[00:39:36] Speaker B: What.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Why am I even thinking like this? You know? And I'm just like, you know what? I was like, there's definitely no God, but, you know, if there was a God, he definitely wouldn't like me.
He. He would be against me. So if there was a God, like, I don't. I don't want to meet him. I don't want to meet him, you know? And then. And I somehow came around to, like, in my mind, I was like, you know, but if there is a God, like, just in case there is one, like, you know, I was kind of like, why am I being such a good person? Like, why am I the designated driver? Why am I not getting drunk and sleeping with multiple women? Why am I not, you know, getting into the Fights as much as everybody else. You know what?
This is my time to really just stop being a good guy. I was like, but before I do that, if there's a God, I'm going to pay my respects, and then I'm going to dive in the deep end and just, you know, I just. Because I feel this pain, I feel this depression.
So I go to church, and I sit in the back. This gentleman by the name of Jack James, he touches my shoulder, and he's like, hey, how you doing? I was just like, hey. Like, we're at church, like, what? And then, like, everyone's, like, talking to each other. Like, this is. This is different. Like, people are talking to each other, and, you know, like, people are, like, kind of asking about me. Okay, well, hi, sir. How you doing? And he's like, hey, well, hold my. Oh, you got to see you, Boulder. My daughter goes to see you, Boulder. And I was like, daughter? Oh, I was like, well, that's not really the reason why I'm here. But I meet his daughter. His daughter is gorgeous. And I'm just like, hi. Oh, my gosh. Okay. You know, we're getting closer to that mark.
And I was just like, great. And so she invites me to.
She invites me to this Christian retreat. So here's atheist. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to play it off like one of them, like I always do, and then I'll just jump in. And they put me only with the guys this time. And I'm thinking, you guys are weak little weaklings. But there was something interesting about them, is that they were strong, and it seemed like they were solid and that they had. They were somehow strong, though, that I was trying to judge them as weak, but there was a strength in them that they kind of knew who they were.
They had this kind of unique thing where they knew who they were. And. And I thought that was. I thought that was really.
That was a really cool thing, was that they knew who they were.
And because of that, I just knew one thing is that they knew who they were, and I didn't know who I was, you know, because you have to define yourself as an atheist.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: You.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: You have to figure it out there. You were not created. You have to create yourself. But then this pastor is like, young people, we're gonna go ahead and grab our Bibles, and we're all gonna go spend time with God, and then we're gonna come back and share with what God shared with us.
And I was like, who?
We're gonna go spend Time with God. That's. That's hilarious. We're gonna spend time with a mythical figure in the sky.
This. And I started sweating. I was like, what are they doing? What is this?
I don't know anything about this. And it's. And I'm scared to tell him that this is stupid.
And, like, I'm not going to do this. Like, what is this? You know? So I was like, pastor, you have a Bible. And then finally, at the very last moment where we're spending time with God.
This is awkward, Jenna, but I don't know what else to do. I open up the scriptures and it says in John 1:12, it says, yet to all those who receive and believe in his name, he gives them the right or the power to become children of God.
And I was like, it just clicked. I was like, wait a minute, I can use this against them. I'm going to show them, according to this, like, you can be at the same level as them because they think they're so high. And, you know, like, they think I'm so low now. They didn't think that, but I felt that way. For some reason, I felt inferior to them.
And looking back now, it's probably the Holy Spirit talking to me. But, you know, I was just, like, feeling this need, and I was like, well, you know what if I receive Jesus?
Like, and just to kind of show them play their game, and I'm going to show them that there's actually, like, it doesn't even make sense, their religion. So I was like, jesus, if you're real, I receive you and I believe in you. I shut the Bible. And I went back and I was excited. I had something to share finally, because every time I didn't have something to share, so it was embarrassing. And I come back to that group and I'm like, hey, guys, like, it comes to my turn and I'm like, you goody little two shoes. And I can't believe I said that. And I'm wagging my finger at them and I'm like, you guys are just a bunch of goody little two shoes. And you know what? In your Bible, it says that if you receive Jesus, that you become like a Christian. And that's all it is to be a Christian. It's not to be like all good and high and mighty and you know, be all like these good person so overly good. It's just about receiving Jesus. And I just did that.
So I have the same status as you guys.
And I thought that was going to tick them off because in the hockey team. And when you point your finger at people and you do something like that, they would get mad at you. They want to fight you. And that's what I was kind of trying to do. And instead they were like, on, congratulations. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Welcome into the kingdom of God. Blah, blah. I don't even remember what they were saying. I was just like. I'm like, oh, cool. Like, they, like, no one. You guys accept me now. What is this? You know, I was like, you guys are so weird.
I can't wait to get off this mountain. I can't wait to get back into the nightclubs, because those people are normal. They're not weird. You know, like these strong Christians.
They were a peculiar people for sure. But at that moment, I did not understand why I was saying. And I got mad. And now I'm starting to get angry. And one of them starts getting. He didn't get angry, but he just kind of lost it. And he goes, you know what? An by the questions you're asking, I'm really beginning to doubt that you have faith at all.
Well, I don't know why that. But I've been called names in the locker room. I've been made fun of in public. But he publicly embarrassed me in front of all the other Christian guys. And that just ticked me off. And so my hand locks up, and I'm about to hit him and start a fight, but what happened was, is I had, like a fifth dimensional experience. Something happened, Janet. Something occurred where suddenly, like, I saw, like, a vision of, like, a quarter go into the air. Like it flipped. You know, when you flip a quarter and it was going in the air and it, like, stopped midway and. And I knew when it stopped in the air like that, that I understood conceptually that time had stopped.
And I heard this booming, amazing voice. And it wasn't here, it wasn't around me. It wasn't in my head. It was something that was coming out of here with all the anger, with everything that was coming out from here. You know, like when you get angry, you're just like, you know, it's like you're holding it back.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Right? Sure.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: This voice comes within and it said, I know you.
And it. This. The way that this voice spoke to me, it was like I was so naked and bare, like I was but then, yet loved and understood. And I felt misunderstood by that Christian guy, but I felt understood.
It was like the opposite effect. And it began to calm me down.
This presence began to calm me down. And then this thought Goes through my head, what would Jesus do? I'm like, what would. Why am I. Why am I thinking these thoughts? You know, like, where is this coming from?
What would Jesus do? And I had enough time to even kind of laugh about that thought and be like, that's so corny.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: That's.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: That's wwjd. Yeah. Like the stuff that Christians put on their wrist. Yeah, right?
[00:48:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: What would Jesus do? And there's enough time for me to stand in this presence that I'd be like, okay, so.
Well, you know, Jesus probably wouldn't be angry. I probably wouldn't hit him for sure. And he. And he probably wouldn't even be angry. Like, he would be probably very calm.
And that. That same voice that spoke said after I said, you know, he probably wouldn't even be angry. It says, because his heavenly father knows him, and I know you.
Once that. That moment hit, it was like, wow, I just feel so understood and so loved. And I'm understanding something about Jesus in this moment who is just like, this guy who was like a crazy guy or some guy, is a cult guy, cult leader, you know, is what I thought.
And I'm having this encounter, and then I blip back into time and space, and I just. I looked at him and I was like, oh, I'm sorry you feel that way, and it's all good. And that weird, awkward tension was just quiet the whole rest of the way down that mountain in the car. And I looked out into the.
Out the window, and I was like, oh, my gosh, Jesus, you're real.
And that's when my prayer life started.
I started talking to Jesus.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: Oftentimes I hear the skeptical voice saying, well, how did you know that that was Jesus? Did Jesus just reveal that to you? You just knew that you knew? Sometimes knowledge is beyond even words. You're just given a sudden revelation of sorts. Was. Was that what happened to you?
[00:49:57] Speaker A: This was a whole discovery process for me, Dr. Jana, that I. Well, first of all, it was. I know you. It was almost like Father God. And I was learning a little bit about Father God up on the. On the retreat, but it was. This wasn't like.
Like, oh, yeah, I recognize who you are. This was like a presence I had never known before.
This was like, whoa, whoa, what is this? And I just knew that whoever this was loved me and knew me and had this knowledge about me that was, like, so intimate, like, so. It was. It's like something you've always wanted. You've always wanted a person to understand you at that Level. You've always wanted someone to be like, you know, like, you know, like, to understand you, like, to like, oh, I get you.
That type of love is what I felt. I was in a pool river of warmth and love. And I. And it was saying, what would Jesus do? And it was saying that I know him and I know you. And so that's what I was like, this is something to do with this Christian faith here. This is like, something here. There's something here. And then, and I thought about, wait, wait a minute, didn't. What did I do back there? Wait a minute. I, I, that's right. I received Jesus.
Wait a minute. Like, he's.
He's real. Wait a minute. If Jesus is real, what, what does that mean? What does the rest mean? And so I went back to church the following Sunday with questions at that point, and I had to learn. And, you know, the pastor's daughter walked me through.
Amazing woman of God, Kathy walks me through a Bible, and she's like, well, this is how the Bible's written, and God will speak to you in this. On. She would say, I'm like, God will speak to me in this. Like, God will speak to me. Like, he's like, yeah. I was like, that's awesome. All right. Like, let's, let's do this. Let's see. I want to see. Let's see if this is real.
And the Lord started speaking to me, and it was like the same voice. Like, as I read it, like, I recognized it. It was like, it's like reading your father's letter or something, you know, it's like, oh, I know. I know this person.
Like, this is. It's the same essence. It's the same voice. It's. It's the same presence. There is something I'm experiencing. And then I begin to, like, put it to the test. I begin to be able to sleep better. I begin to be able to perform better. I begin to, like, you know, the Bible says, like, do not worry. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.
I'm actually doing wrong by worrying. Like, oh, my gosh. My mental health got so much better, and I realized God is real.
God is. God is real.
And it changed it. This changed everything for me. This was a huge game changer for everything for me.
And life became so much more peaceful, so much more.
I realized that I didn't have to create myself anymore and that I was creative, and that was Dr. Jan. I don't have to make myself no more.
I don't have to be anything The Bible says that I'm accepted and beloved. Like, I'm already accepted. It doesn't matter if you reject me. Oh, that was a big deal. I didn't like it when people rejected me because I felt like it wasn't good enough, you know? So now it's like, it doesn't matter.
Like, if I fail, if people laugh at me, I can actually just be free to mess up because of something called the grace of God. Like, it's. It's not survival the fittest.
It's about being blessed and taken care of.
It's about being home. I was like, this is awesome. Like, wait. Wait a minute. I don't have to be like a man and work hard and grunt myself through life. Like, God's gonna provide for me, and I just kind of, like, get to be a man and. And he just. This is awesome.
This is amazing. I'm not going to be alone anymore.
Heck, yeah. This is amazing. Like, I don't have to be alone anymore. I'm not alone anymore. I. Now I don't have to go to people to be a sounding board. I can just go talk to my heavenly Father with scripture, of course, with years, like, ages of wisdom now.
[00:54:15] Speaker B: It really. It really does sound like I. I think it's going from darkness to light. I mean, it truly is death to life.
You have crossed over from death to life, as John says. And so when you. When you find Christ and the. And the difference is stark.
And that's why I love these stories, is because that's what you're telling us, is the life that you led, the life that you knew, that you believed to be true.
The best way to go about life, the only way to match with reality, the stark view of reality.
But yet now your vision of the world has changed. The reality of the world has changed. There is something supernatural. There is someone transcendent who informs you and everything about you. And every. Who knows you know, to your bone marrow, he knows you and he loves you anyway, and he guides your life. But I can hear somebody saying, but that was a personal experience. And yes, it works for you, and yes, it calmed your whatever and gave you purpose and all that. But how do we know that it's true?
[00:55:23] Speaker A: For the skeptic out there, I get it. I would be skeptical, too. But, you know, you can be skeptical of skeptical about a. Like, a really nice restaurant, and that's really good. And I'm telling you, it's good. You're like, oh, you're just trying to sell me something. I'M going to be skeptical on how good that restaurant is. You're just. You're just selling it. Well, you know, there is sometimes where people are trying to manipulate you and sell you on something, but there's something where someone truly gets something that's really good and they express it, and they're free to express that.
That's different. That's not manipulation.
You know, the peace and the joy that I experience, I don't just experience it when I'm talking about it. I experience it all the time in my life.
This is something that just for even just for peace, I would have. I would have given my life to Christ just for the peace.
If I could have just gotten peace, that was. That would be enough for me. But it was so much more. And I was surprisingly shocked on how much faith in Christ. And it's not just faith in Christ, the reality of Jesus.
The reality of Jesus not only being just a belief, but a real relationship. Like, he will talk to you. Like, he will work with you. He actually, he will. The Bible says that he will come and live in you.
Like, seriously, it's real. The Holy Spirit will abide with you. Like, I have someone today who. Who knows the future and who knows my past and knows even past beyond. And I'm like. I'm like his son.
Like, I have the access to everything. And this is the most amazing thing in the world. So, you know, if you're skeptical about it, I'd say, I dare you to try it.
I dare you. I dare you just say, Jesus, if you're real, I receive you and I believe in you. And. And then, like, see what happens, you know, like, see, like, and. And be. I wasn't even genuine about it, and I was doing it to prove a point. And he showed up.
So. Because he's real and he knows about the future. He knows about your future. He knows about my future, and he has it all laid out. What I love about life now is I'm no longer trying to make myself. I'm trying to just discover what he made for me.
I'm just trying to discover. I'm not trying to make it all happen.
I get arrest. I get to just walk into it.
Yeah, I work, but, like, it's a lot of just trusting in what he's doing. You know what I mean? And so it's so amazing.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Your life is truly a testimony to the reality of God. I mean, truly, in every way, it sounds like the way that you looked at life and lived life is very, very different. It's very transformed. And it's hard to push back against what you're sitting there and tell it. Not only telling us, but the way in which you're living and experiencing life. It's just, it's phenomenal. But we as Christians are called to.
To be Christ and to demonstrate Christ, to show Christ to others so that they can get a sense of what it might look like. And, and I wondered how you would advise us as Christians. Obviously, you're a man of words as well. You, you sit behind a microphone and you're declaring and you're proclaiming the truth and the reality of Christ. How could we as Christians really engage, well, with skeptics? I mean, what do you think? You, you had some Christians in your life. You said they were strong, they were solid, they were standing on something foundational. You, you mentioned that, that they knew who they were. You know, there was a solidity to them.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: You know, what I would say is that just be love.
God is love. And sometimes we get into, like, the whole judgmental thing and thinking that, you know, you do want to speak the truth in love and don't try to be like the world.
If you be like the world. A person like me would have. I would have never seen Jesus. If they weren't peculiar people, if they weren't different, I would have never seen Jesus. That's one. Number two is, is that.
Be just flowing Jesus and let Jesus do it. It's not like there's something we need to change about ourselves. Just let Jesus flow. Jesus wants to reach them. Let Jesus do it through you. That's number two.
You know, and, you know, and, and when you're talking to someone who's a skeptic, be patient and be, don't, don't lose patience. That. That's not going to go well. That's what happened with the other guy.
And be patient with those who don't know Christ. And let them challenge you. Let them insult you. Let them. That's what they did to Jesus.
And I insulted. I would, you know, I was wagging my finger. But I eventually came to know Christ because they endured my bad behavior.
So, you know, you're gonna expect to be persecuted.
Expect to be persecuted, but don't be like, oh, my gosh, you're persecuting me. Like, let me go hide in the corner. No, live out loud. If it's good, let it be good. And if your Christian life isn't good, then go. You're not accessing it. That means it's just like, you know, A tree is not getting water. You just go get water.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: Anybody can become a child of God. And that's. I think what I love about your story and what you realized at that moment is that even you, no matter what your past was, that that God loved you. Jesus loved you. He knew you and he loved you. And if anyone hears anything today, whether they're Christian or skeptical or not, know that, that Christ loves you.
And, and he, you know, he just wants you to come, you know, to receive like you have received and then allow him to live in and through you. So thank you so much on for your story. It's incredible. It's incredible. You've taken us a lot of different places, but it's. And at the end of the day, it is a life transformed and a life lived out in Christ and for Christ. I've heard it said that nobody can live the Christian life except for Christ, Christ in and through them. And that's what your life looks like. It's what it sounds like. And you have obviously given your life so that others can know Christ in them. So thank you so much for coming on.
[01:02:03] Speaker A: You know, Dr. Jana, if I can mention one more.
We talked about the porn, we talked about the dream and all that stuff. What I discovered just to make it a full circle, when I came to know Christ, God started showing me that that was wrong, that it was actually committing adultery. Just even a look. Even a look. No, not in town of pornography. We're talking about just a look at another woman. You know, it's like, oh my gosh. So I started trying to live a life of purity, empowered by the Holy Spirit. And I was able to do that. I was able to get set free from my porn addiction and I was able to get married and you know, live a life in marriage. And it's. It's all I can say is not getting too personal, but it's different. It's better.
Everything is better. And porn is definitely very destructive and it's not reality, you know, reality is so much better. True love.
[01:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, true love. I love that. And we will end on that. Thank you so much again an for coming on.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Dr. Jana.
[01:03:06] Speaker B: What on story leaves us with is the weight of trying to make life work on your own without God. When meaning has to be created, when identity has to be earned, when success and happiness feel fragile because everything depends on you.
For many skeptics, life without God isn't about rejecting.
It's about self reliance.
It's about doing the best you can with the tools you've been given, and sometimes that work until it doesn't.
Here at X Skeptic, we share unlikely stories of belief, stories of people who once tried to carry life alone and who found themselves surprised by something or someone they never expected.
If today's conversation raised questions for you, we've created curated playlists list on our YouTube channel organized around life's biggest questions, including Is there more to life than this?
You can explore these at your own pace. You can also follow X Skeptic on social media to help these stories reach others who may be quietly asking the same questions.
And if you'd like to support this work, our merch helps sustain the ministry and start conversations beyond this episode. All the links are in the the show notes. If you'd like to reach us directly, you can email us@info skeptic.org thanks again for listening and I hope you'll join us again next time for another unlikely story of belief.
